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Old 02-16-2013, 11:42 AM   #21
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Is GG a troll?
If she indicates she is negotiating on purchasing a used Russian attack sub and wants to know whether marinas typically offer torpedo maintenance, then we'll know for sure.

Or perhaps not...
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:21 PM   #22
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Galaxy Girl,

You claim to have substantial resources to purchase your dream. Why you seem to lack the capacity to accept sound advice from experienced owners of similar sized yachts is a mystery to me.

I respect everyone who has responded to this and other threads you've started. Perhaps you need to read through them again and see the common thread woven into all of them then make your decision. Ignoring wisdom comes with risk of consequences. If you're ok with that, buy what you wish.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:27 PM   #23
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Galaxy Girl,

You claim to have substantial resources to purchase your dream. Why you seem to lack the capacity to accept sound advice from experienced owners of similar sized yachts is a mystery to me.

I respect everyone who has responded to this and other threads you've started. Perhaps you need to read through them again and see the common thread woven into all of them then make your decision. Ignoring wisdom comes with risk of consequences. If you're ok with that, buy what you wish.
Galaxy Girl, I think you have a dream on buying "The perfect" boat. This one does not exist. Don't let Forums make you crazy. Make your wish list and start shopping. Best not comunicate about this, a hundreds of people wil have hundreds "different" opinions on this.

In fact I am in the same proces, a lot of conflicting demands etc. etc.

I wish you wisdom and luck.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:51 PM   #24
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All boats wired in Europa are wired with 2.5 mm2 ~ AWG 14

All motors will work on 60 Hz without problem, my experience from bringing my Tools, Washing machine etc. from Europa to Brazil (60 Hz)
Perhaps all boats in Europe should be wired with 2.5 mm2 wire, but that's no guarantee they are. And in any event, that's not the point. A boat wired to European standards cannot be easily converted to North American standards.

As for motors, sure, tool motors are likely to work, because they are mostly universal motors. But for induction motors, you can't make a blanket statement. Some might work, some won't. And seeing as how the failure mode is likely to include severe overheating and possibly fire is this really a risk you want to take? On a vessel which your kids are on?

I thought not.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:02 PM   #25
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+3

The real issue is that the OP doesn't know what questions to ask yet. Assuming the boat in question really is wired to a European standard there's ways of dealing with that which don't come close to needing to rewire it. Since she (the OP) seems to have done a drive by thread I think we could let this one die.
IslandEagle, What you know about boat building in Europa??? Seems to be "NOTHING"

Internet knowledge.........
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:34 PM   #26
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[QUOTE=IslandEagle;135008]Galaxy Girl,

I'll keep this dead simple. Do not, DO NOT, under ANY circumstances, even consider purchasing a boat wired for non-North American wiring (220 volt 2 wire) and attempt to use it on a North American (110/220 volt 3 wire) system. Trust me when I tell you that there are ONLY two possible ways to make this work: first is rewiring the boat, for which I would budget a MINIMUM of $50K. Second is getting a universal shore power conditioner, which would be more.

+2 Run away from this one buddy!
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:40 PM   #27
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With Soooo many boats available in N.A. why would one want to open this can of worms ..........
I`m guessing this boat is attractively cheap compared to others. For a very good reason. Sirens and flashing lights.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:48 PM   #28
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Reiziger, red sails are neat.

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Old 02-16-2013, 07:35 PM   #29
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Actually, both of these statements are misleading.

Transformers have a design frequency. If the transformer has been designed for 50 Hz operation, you cannot necessarily use it on 60 Hz. You will need to check the specifications.

As for the genset, it is non-trivial to convert a 50 Hz genset to 60 Hz, and it may require replacement of the actual generator end.

To say nothing of the fact that branch circuit wiring in North America requires three wire (Hot, Neutral, Ground) number 14.

All in all, as I said in my post, this is not a project for someone without A LOT of experience.

Everything you posted except for the last sentence is misleading.

Most isolation transformers can handle and are rated at 50/60Hz.

Converting a marine diesel generator to 60Hz from 50Hz or vice versa is normally trivial. It will actually produce more power at 60 Hz because the engine is turning faster.

What shoreside wiring code did you get the #14 wire thing from? It doesn't apply to marine installations.

This is one more example of why the best advice is to take the questions to a qualified and experienced marine electrician and avoid house electricians and toy boat surveyors like the plague.
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Old 02-16-2013, 07:38 PM   #30
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Trust me when I tell you that there are ONLY two possible ways to make this work: first is rewiring the boat, for which I would budget a MINIMUM of $50K. Second is getting a universal shore power conditioner, which would be more.
Horse pucky.

Do you mind telling us why the boat has to be "rewired?"
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:32 PM   #31
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Horse pucky.

Do you mind telling us why the boat has to be "rewired?"


Its good to have you back Rick.

Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:35 PM   #32
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Everything you posted except for the last sentence is misleading.
I'll take some time to flesh out my answer, not for the OP, but because somebody out there might be interested.

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Most isolation transformers can handle and are rated at 50/60Hz.
Well, drawing on the experience of my first job, in the QA department of a transformer manufacturer, I'd have to say that this is not true. Some, yes. All, no. In particular, it's highly unlikely that an isolation transformer manufacured and installed on a boat in Europe (two wire, 220V, 50Hz, 16 or 32 amp) will be designed for North American shore power (three wire, 110/220V, 60 Hz, 30 or 50 amp).

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Converting a marine diesel generator to 60Hz from 50Hz or vice versa is normally trivial. It will actually produce more power at 60 Hz because the engine is turning faster.
Well, drawing on my 35 years of experience maintaining diesel generators, I'd say this is not true. Yes, it's possible to just adjust the governor. And yes, it's possible that the generator end may be designed for 60 Hz as well as 50 Hz. And yes, it's possible that it's a 12-lead generator and you can reconfigure it from European (two wire, 220V) to North American (three wire, 110/220V) standards. And even if you can, you're looking at replacing all the breakers, all the panels, and quite possibly the voltage regulator as well.

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What shoreside wiring code did you get the #14 wire thing from? It doesn't apply to marine installations.
This is not just wrong, it's really wrong. Overcurrent protection is mandated by all wiring codes, including AYBC. It most certainly does apply to marine installations. The ampacity tables are commonly available. If you want 15 amp branch circuits, you need a minimum of #14 AWG wire (outside of engineroom spaces, where the ampacity of wire is reduced).

Since European (220V) wiring is typically smaller than #14 for branch circuits, not to mention small than #10 for shore power, I reiterate my earlier answer: realistically speaking, you are looking at a major rewire.
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:44 PM   #33
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Horse pucky. Do you mind telling us why the boat has to be "rewired?"
Again, answering because somebody might be interested:

European (two wire, 220V, 50 Hz) systems use (not surprisingly) two wires. There is no "neutral" like we are used to in North America. Furthermore, since 220V requires half the amperage than 110V for the equivalent wattage, branch circuits can be of a lower amapacity (typically 10A).

In practical terms what this all means is the following, starting from the source:

1) The shore power cable will be 16 or 32 amps. This will have to be completely replaced.

2) The main distribution panel, selector switch, meters, breakers, etc. will all be 220V two wire. All of these components will have to be replaced with 110/220 two wire versions.

3) All of the branch circuits are likely two-wire 220V 10 amp circuits. All will need to be replaced with 15 amp wiring (#14).

3) All of the receptacles, light switches, bulb sockets, etc. will be rated and sized for 220V loads, and all will need to be replaced.

4) All 220V transformers and equipment will need to be replaced.

5) All non-universal 220V motors will need to be replaced.

In my books, that adds up to "rewiring".

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Old 02-16-2013, 08:46 PM   #34
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Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?
You could indeed get a 110:220 step-up transformer, although that would still leave the issue of 50Hz vs 60Hz to deal with. However, you would then be stuck sourcing 220V appliances forever. Probably not practical. But definitely the lowest short-term cost.

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Old 02-16-2013, 09:19 PM   #35
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Reiziger, red sails are neat.

+1 :-) But Wooden Shoes are also neat......
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:40 PM   #36
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Its good to have you back Rick.

Leaving aside the matter of obtaining 240 volt appliances in North America, if she has her heart set on this boat, is there any reason why she couldn't install a 2nd isolation transformer and continue to use the (presumably) European wiring onboard?
This is the most cost effective solution. It isn't hard to select a transformer that can handle both 50 Hz and 60 Hz, they are readily available. And typically they can act as stepup/step down 120/240 V also. Both Victron and Charles have such models.

Here's a real-world example with modern equipment. My boat is being setup - by professional marine electricians - with two isolation transformers. I dont have the schematic with me to share at present, but it is designed to be simple and foolproof so that well-meaning crew cannot accidentally cause a problem.

When in North America and connected to shorepower the 120V/60Hz supply feeds the 120V switchpanel and supplies existing 120V appliances with 60 Hz power. Importantly this includes a battery charger. I have a large housebank and 220V/50Hz inverter. So while at dock (in USA) my 240V appliances draw from the batteries/inverter, hence the importance of the 120V battery charger noted above. This charger is a nice spec. Victron Phoenix 12/50, which can handle any available shorepower (Input 90-265VAC, 45-65 Hz)

When in the rest of the world my shorepower, a different inlet from the USA one, is 220V/50Hz. Any legacy 120V appliances I have and want to use, I can. BUT, they will be getting 120V and 50Hz. The appliances that cant handle that frequency are being ditched. eg 120V microwave.

Away from the dock the boat is 240V, with 120V available on board but at 50Hz. This compromise solution allows me to avoid replacing all the 120V appliances at once. Some 120V outlets are being changed to 220 V outlets: wire conductor capacity is OK for this, but conductor colors are getting appropriate color heatshrink at the ends to differentiate the useage, and of course these wires are connected into the new 220V swichpanel anyway. In other places I am adding new 220 V outlets with new wire.

The steps are straightforward: appliance inventory, audit of wiring/switchpanels, plan a safe solution. Yes, expert marine electrical contractors are the best way to go for planning and installation. With modern components a safe and cost effective combination of both 220V and 120V systems are achievable, and appliance replacement can be minimized and done when convenient. Lots of stuff - newer flatpanel TV's, phone chargers can take either voltage anyway.
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Old 02-16-2013, 09:42 PM   #37
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The boat builder that has dealt with the different wiring, cycles and voltage as much as any during the past decade or more is Nordhavn. Their website has a good discussion of "power abroad" and how they design and build for it. One point they did bring up is the price of shore power converters is dropping.

Little of what they say satisfies the mythical question posed by GG. For many years there was a moderator troller on THT that really got things going, up to 10,000 + posts as I recall.
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Old 02-16-2013, 10:15 PM   #38
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Little of what they say satisfies the mythical question posed by GG. For many years there was a moderator troller on THT that really got things going, up to 10,000 + posts as I recall.
Tom, I went back to the original post. It`s an odd scattergun of questions/implications. You may well be right, though it fits my memory of the type of questions GG posted previously.
Any number of struggling Australian electrical retailers would happily supply a full range of 240v appliances, powering them is something else.
GG, are you helped by the posts so far?
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Old 02-16-2013, 11:19 PM   #39
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Again, answering because somebody might be interested:

European (two wire, 220V, 50 Hz) systems use (not surprisingly) two wires. There is no "neutral" like we are used to in North America. Furthermore, since 220V requires half the amperage than 110V for the equivalent wattage, branch circuits can be of a lower amapacity (typically 10A).

In practical terms what this all means is the following, starting from the source:

1) The shore power cable will be 16 or 32 amps. This will have to be completely replaced.

2) The main distribution panel, selector switch, meters, breakers, etc. will all be 220V two wire. All of these components will have to be replaced with 110/220 two wire versions.

3) All of the branch circuits are likely two-wire 220V 10 amp circuits. All will need to be replaced with 15 amp wiring (#14).

3) All of the receptacles, light switches, bulb sockets, etc. will be rated and sized for 220V loads, and all will need to be replaced.

4) All 220V transformers and equipment will need to be replaced.

5) All non-universal 220V motors will need to be replaced.

In my books, that adds up to "rewiring".

Scott
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You are dead on correct! Great post!
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Old 02-17-2013, 12:13 AM   #40
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all this debate and no additional posts from Galaxy Girl... whoever she.. or he is for that matter?

I think someone is having fun with the members of the forum. Nobody is this ignorant going into a boat of this size... unless it is a professionally skippered boat.
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