Portable generator

[Gdavid]

Ships' AC loaded are not grounded to the generator in most installations, I researched it thoroughly when planning for the installation of a diesel generator in our last boat. Both the blue sea systems rotary (dual pole) and the interlocked two pole breaker set ups do not switch the grounding wire. I installed a separate ground switch to accomplish this (while away from the dock) and was almost universally told I was a fool for doing so on this forum. Break out the multimeter on your boat and report your findings.

 

[porman]

I've got an older Honda 2000 with regular 15 amp outlets. Bought it in 2001 to use when our power goes out at our house during windstorms. I thought I would try it on our Mainship to possibly use as a backup. The reverse polarity light on the electrical panel goes on. I was told by someone on the dock that I should connect the ground to neutral at the generator. What do you electrical experts say about that?

 

[smitty477]

Depends, depends, depends....read more.... in bth those cases.

Guy we cruised with lost his outdrive to electrolysis from a portable.

Perhaps post a link from any genset manufacturer with the guidelines or schematic on how to set it up correctly in marine use.

 

[Maerin]

Some don't and that was my concern when I posted about CO2 danger.

CO is carbon monoxide, it's poisonous. CO2 is carbon dioxide, it's not nearly as harmful, however it CAN cause suffocation if there's enough of it to displace the oxygen that the human machine requires to stay conscious.



Not to nitpick as it's usually a typo, but there may be some readers who may not be aware of the difference. We need to be accurate when discussing the safety issues involved. Inaccuracy erodes credibility.

 

[Cigatoo]

I've got an older Honda 2000 with regular 15 amp outlets. Bought it in 2001 to use when our power goes out at our house during windstorms. I thought I would try it on our Mainship to possibly use as a backup. The reverse polarity light on the electrical panel goes on. I was told by someone on the dock that I should connect the ground to neutral at the generator. What do you electrical experts say about that?

This from ABYC.

“The only AC neutral to ground (connecting the white wire to a green wire) connections on board are made at generators or inverters, and then only when they are invert mode. Additionally, if the boat is equipped with an isolation transformer, then the boat side of the transformer becomes a new source of AC power and therefore a neutral to ground link is established.

The mistake the land based electricians will often make is to link the neutral and grounding buss bars behind the main power distribution panels on the boat. This simple error will create a situation where as each AC appliance gets turned on, more and more current from the appliances that would normally return to its source via the neutral conductor gets dumped into the boat’s grounding system.

Combine that with a bit of not so great dock wiring and the current enters the water via a through-hull fitting, creating a potentially lethal situation for swimmers near your boat.

The lesson here? Keep your cousin Vinny the licensed electrician away from your boat’s AC wiring until he gets some training on MARINE electricity. My shameless plug? Make sure the person working on your boat’s electrical system is ABYC certified in electricity.”

https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504/ABYC-Blog--Boat-Tips?tag=ESD

 

[psneeld]

Guy we cruised with lost his outdrive to electrolysis from a portable.

Perhaps post a link from any genset manufacturer with the guidelines or schematic on how to set it up correctly in marine use.

The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.

 

[schrater]

The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.

I think psneeld has it here. Simple application. Small and efficient portable gas generator, run up on deck, for a few hours while awake and monitoring, with the basic shore power cable plugged in to run the charger, in the odd situation where necessary for longer stays on the hook.

There are a million “what ifs”, but none of those fit the profile the OP (me) posited.

 

[OldDan1943]

Daymn, I did not realize people were trying to power their boat with a portable generator. I should have suspected it when they talked about powering their A/CSs

 

[porman]

Cigatoo, thank you for the information. Based on the first paragraph it looks like it is OK to connect the white and green wires together at the generator.

 

[catalinajack]

This from ABYC.

“The only AC neutral to ground (connecting the white wire to a green wire) connections on board are made at generators or inverters, and then only when they are invert mode. Additionally, if the boat is equipped with an isolation transformer, then the boat side of the transformer becomes a new source of AC power and therefore a neutral to ground link is established.

The mistake the land based electricians will often make is to link the neutral and grounding buss bars behind the main power distribution panels on the boat. This simple error will create a situation where as each AC appliance gets turned on, more and more current from the appliances that would normally return to its source via the neutral conductor gets dumped into the boat’s grounding system.

Combine that with a bit of not so great dock wiring and the current enters the water via a through-hull fitting, creating a potentially lethal situation for swimmers near your boat.

The lesson here? Keep your cousin Vinny the licensed electrician away from your boat’s AC wiring until he gets some training on MARINE electricity. My shameless plug? Make sure the person working on your boat’s electrical system is ABYC certified in electricity.”

https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504/ABYC-Blog--Boat-Tips?tag=ESD

I found that - the neutral and safety busbars bonded together - on my boat two years ago. I looked for it, and found it, after reading about its ill affects here.

 

[psneeld]

I think psneeld has it here. Simple application. Small and efficient portable gas generator, run up on deck, for a few hours while awake and monitoring, with the basic shore power cable plugged in to run the charger, in the odd situation where necessary for longer stays on the hook.

There are a million “what ifs”, but none of those fit the profile the OP (me) posited.

actually no...I plug the charger directly into the genset using an extension cord...though I used to use the shore power cord...I don't energize the whole boat system with the genset, it just charges batteries and if I need AC power, the boat outlets run off a marine grade, properly installed inveter.



by doing that I eliminate even the fearmongerers worry that by touching something electrical while the genset is running. Just so I won't cook myself because of wetnss, bad plugs, frayed wires, Halley's Comet, etc...etc... (even though I have managed for 65 years without zapping myselt )

 

[stubones99]

One negative to Honda's compact gensets is that it doesn't have a fuel shutoff. You either run it out of fuel or leave fuel in the carb for next time. There are aftermarket kits for the fuel shutoff valve for Honda gensets.
Yamaha's similar gensets do have the fuel shutoff valve so you close the valve and the genset sputters to a stop in a minute or so, leaving the carb dry.

 

[OldDan1943]

One negative to Honda's compact gensets is that it doesn't have a fuel shutoff. You either run it out of fuel or leave fuel in the carb for next time. There are aftermarket kits for the fuel shutoff valve for Honda gensets.
Yamaha's similar gensets do have the fuel shutoff valve so you close the valve and the genset sputters to a stop in a minute or so, leaving the carb dry.

A URL for the aftermarket shut off valve to the Honda please?

 

[sunchaser]

FWIW - one small harbor we boat out of ...Northport NY.
Two occurrences of Co poisoning causing deaths of 3 people in the past 3 seasons.
More if you consider the 'near misses' where folks were not killed.

Off topic - CO poisoning at Lake Powell has been common. Especially with kids swimming between tubes on large anchored houseboats.

There are all sorts of vessels with gas powered bilge mounted gensets ala SeaRay etc. I've had a few. CO issues a normal factor to watch out for with gasoline engines. It shouldn't dominate the pros and cons of portable genset brand and use discussions.

 

[Cigatoo]

Cigatoo, thank you for the information. Based on the first paragraph it looks like it is OK to connect the white and green wires together at the generator.

I would be very careful with a portable generator. I like Sneeds method. Direct connection from the appliance to the generator. Bypass the boat altogether. Also be careful with CO. CO can sneak up on you if you are not paying attention.

 

[smitty477]

The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.

Perhaps post a link to any of these sites , one that you prefer.
Or a link to a marine article or surveyor that speaks about the best methods to utilize a portable genset on a boat.

 

[psneeld]

Perhaps post a link to any of these sites , one that you prefer.
Or a link to a marine article or surveyor that speaks about the best methods to utilize a portable genset on a boat.

Ah...using my same tactic against me...good call.



Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.



But me...a lowly, but highly experienced, well trained, but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need.


You can kill yourself a dozen ways every day on your boat if you don't think about what you are doing...all I am saying is be smarter than the guy who gets $500 an article to say it's unsafe because it's the easy and legally safe thing to write.


My reference to the abundant internet info is the stats that these guys use don't really prove much, the real dangers to life or limb are really small if careful and the anecdotal evidence of portable generator use compared to incidents is overwhelming.


Well...just to one up myself.......here was an article that I found in about 10 seconds of googling that echoes some of my thoughts....and virtually every danger is easily mitigated or fixed.


http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

 

[smitty477]

Ah...using my same tactic against me...good call.



Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.



But me...a lowly, but highly experienced, well trained, but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need.


You can kill yourself a dozen ways every day on your boat if you don't think about what you are doing...all I am saying is be smarter than the guy who gets $500 an article to say it's unsafe because it's the easy and legally safe thing to write.


My reference to the abundant internet info is the stats that these guys use don't really prove much, the real dangers to life or limb are really small if careful and the anecdotal evidence of portable generator use compared to incidents is overwhelming.


Well...just to one up myself.......here was an article that I found in about 10 seconds of googling that echoes some of my thoughts....and virtually every danger is easily mitigated or fixed.


http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

"Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.
That is what I have found as well.

Also - no insurance company that I know of will cover any liabilities or losses from carrying one that I know of.

"but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need"

Took your advice and looked one up....
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/generator-safety/

 

[psneeld]

I don't believe you general claim that all insurance companies will deny claims involving portable generators. Too many variables.


Of course some safety foundation is going to regurgittae the same old stuff that is for the most part easy to deal with the hazards.


And finally...I feel a lot safer managing my little portable under very controlled conditions compared to a built in ABYC OKed gas genset below decks running all night to keep some cool or warm. All those same warnings can be applied at least in some fashion to built in gensets too.

 

[smitty477]

I don't believe you general claim that all insurance companies will deny claims involving portable generators. Too many variables.


Of course some safety foundation is going to regurgittae the same old stuff that is for the most part easy to deal with the hazards.


And finally...I feel a lot safer managing my little portable under very controlled conditions compared to a built in ABYC OKed gas genset below decks running all night to keep some cool or warm. All those same warnings can be applied at least in some fashion to built in gensets too.

Boating to us has always meant being around many folks of various ages on our boat and the boats we travel with.
Mitigating hazards has always required taking all of these people into account not just me.
Additionally we do require reasonable insurance as part of that reasonable risk mitigation.
Your posts do not indicate any insurance companies that might fit this portable genset issue, no marine electrical articles on how to wire them up , nor any articles on the best practices of safe use by the genset companies or any other recognized marine experts.

 

[psneeld]

I believe insurance companies that don't specifically address it as an exclusion will cover it...they cover so many other things. So again if anyone is worried.... all they have to do is pick up a phone.


I would think by now if it were an issue...it would be an excluded item in my policy.


As to covering safety tips, how to plug something in...etc...I have said some and so did my link... read closely.


AND....it doesn't matter, it's up to the person thinking of using one to figure out how they will safely...I just don't buy into the "they are unsafe" or "never belong on a boat" mass hysteria designed to protect people that can't or won't think safety comes in colors, not black and white.

 

[smitty477]

I believe insurance companies that don't specifically address it as an exclusion will cover it...they cover so many other things. So again if anyone is worried.... all they have to do is pick up a phone.


I would think by now if it were an issue...it would be an excluded item in my policy.


As to covering safety tips, how to plug something in...etc...I have said some and so did my link... read closely.


AND....it doesn't matter, it's up to the person thinking of using one to figure out how they will safely...I just don't buy into the "they are unsafe" or "never belong on a boat" mass hysteria designed to protect people that can't or won't think safety comes in colors, not black and white.

"As to covering safety tips, how to plug something in...etc...I have said some and so did my link... read closely."

Yes you did - here is your post....

My 1000W Honda (now 22 years old with no significant maintenance) runs my ProMariner 50A charger most of the time..every once and awhile if the gas is bad, etc...I can reprogram the charger to 75% output and all is well.

My charger has a regular 110V plug so instead of plugging in my shore power and living with the dangers of a portable genset plugged in there...I just run an extension cord to my charger.

While CO is a danger, I only run the genset while awake and onboard in an area where fumes go overboard and downwind.

 

[stubones99]

A URL for the aftermarket shut off valve to the Honda please?

Hindsight is 2020...
Here is one link on how to do it...
Honda EU2000i Generator Fuel Shut-Off (The Easy Way!) | RVB Precision


When looking this up, I found that as of Feb 2018, Honda generators have a fuel cutoff valve already installed...
https://www.facebook.com/HondaPower...eu2200i-honda-generators-t/10155953207878592/

 

[psneeld]

Notice his tip is to solder any wires exposed to excessive vibration?

 

[porman]

I would be very careful with a portable generator. I like Sneeds method. Direct connection from the appliance to the generator. Bypass the boat altogether. Also be careful with CO. CO can sneak up on you if you are not paying attention.

I only considered this for an emergency situation, such as being on anchor in a remote location and my onboard genset died. Unfortunately my battery charger is hard wired, so am unable to plug in directly. I'm a retired car technician and very aware of CO poisoning. There is a CO monitor in every cabin of our boat and I replaced them all not long ago. This has been an informative topic. I do need to add the fuel shut-off. Thanks all.

 

[Fish53]

The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.

I'd like to also get behind psneeld's comment. I have a Honda clone generator, a Champion 1400 that I only use fully attended up on deck aft and as I'm usually on the hook or a mooring the breeze carries the exhaust away quickly. I only use it for battery charging and an occasional power tool so I plug in directly. By the way my Champion has proven to be a fine little generator and cost under $400.00.

 

[Lou_tribal]

My insurance contract does not mention any exclusion about using a portable generator, there is an exclusion if I transport nuclear weapons or radioactive material though.

L

 

[Seevee]

I want to buy a small portable generator (for top side) that I can plug my shore power cable into for recharging my house batteries without having to run the big diesel. Basically I’m trying to figure out the minimum wattage output necessary for this.

I assume the most relevant info is I have a Xantrex Trucharge 40+. What factors do I need to look for?

First, I can say the Honda EU2000 is bullet proof, not that there aren't good competitors also. I used it to power my 27 ft Sundancer years ago. It would run the 9K AC unit or the grill, plus all the lighting, radio, etc. I put it on the swim platform and worked well for years. BUT, it was a PITA. Need calm water, would't last thru the nite so had to fill it, and it had it's element of risk. Not for me any more.


Question: Why don't you look at solar? You may not get the wattage to run all of your stuff all the time, but sounds like you don't have high electrical requirements. If you're all gas for the galley, seems like all you'd need is for a few lights, computer, TV and that's about it?


If you need to run your micro for a short time, would be a non issue just running down the batteries for a bit.



Now if you need a LOT of wattage, you could spend more than the Honda, but once installed, pretty trouble free, no fuel and it's always on.


I take it AC is not an issue (but hard to run without a good sized gen.

 

[sailalfin]

I need a bit of education here please. I've long been under the impression that a portable generator was a big no-no on a boat per ABYC due to the lack of a neutral/ground connection. I know people do it all the time I'm just wondering how they do it safely.

Is there something you do on the generator that makes it safe?

Is it a non issue if you are sure your boat is wired correctly?

Is it just a roll of the dice that it won't cause an issue or a leaking current problem?

Something else???

I'm not trying to be a "Richard" here...I really don't know if this is just another boating legend I've been told.

Thanks mucho!

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT NEIGHBOR (I'M KIKO FROM PINE ISLAND) AND ABYC DOES MAINTAin that the portable is not acceptable. I am a marine engineer, 56 years with ABYC, led the Tiger Team of the USCG investigating accidents and can tell you that an extremely large percentage of accidents occur due to operator negligence. sailalfin@gmail.com

 

[Sea Fever WNK]

Before you add a portable Generator please think of all those peaceful place we can all go with our vessels. One boat with a Gas Generator sitting on the swim platform so the boat owner's (who usually have gone off in their dinghy), can barely hear it.


If you have a Diesel Genset onboard use it, don't spoil an anchorage for everyone else. You won't make friends with those you are sharing the anchorage with. They are loud and even louder when on a swim platform.


Let's keep our nice quiet anchorages quiet... Go Solar and get a Simarine battery monitor... best new gizmo we have added to our GB-42. I know exactly what the Panels are putting in and exactly what the fridge and Freezer are taking out, plus a whole lot more info, a great tool.