Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-24-2019, 04:15 PM   #61
Guru
 
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,381
Ships' AC loaded are not grounded to the generator in most installations, I researched it thoroughly when planning for the installation of a diesel generator in our last boat. Both the blue sea systems rotary (dual pole) and the interlocked two pole breaker set ups do not switch the grounding wire. I installed a separate ground switch to accomplish this (while away from the dock) and was almost universally told I was a fool for doing so on this forum. Break out the multimeter on your boat and report your findings.
Gdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 04:17 PM   #62
Guru
 
porman's Avatar
 
City: Duvall, Wa. USA
Vessel Name: Beach Music II
Vessel Model: 2003 Mainship 430 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,040
I've got an older Honda 2000 with regular 15 amp outlets. Bought it in 2001 to use when our power goes out at our house during windstorms. I thought I would try it on our Mainship to possibly use as a backup. The reverse polarity light on the electrical panel goes on. I was told by someone on the dock that I should connect the ground to neutral at the generator. What do you electrical experts say about that?
porman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 04:46 PM   #63
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Depends, depends, depends....read more.... in bth those cases.
Guy we cruised with lost his outdrive to electrolysis from a portable.

Perhaps post a link from any genset manufacturer with the guidelines or schematic on how to set it up correctly in marine use.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #64
Guru
 
Maerin's Avatar
 
City: East Coast
Vessel Name: M/V Maerin (Sold)
Vessel Model: Solo 4303
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 886
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
Some don't and that was my concern when I posted about CO2 danger.

CO is carbon monoxide, it's poisonous. CO2 is carbon dioxide, it's not nearly as harmful, however it CAN cause suffocation if there's enough of it to displace the oxygen that the human machine requires to stay conscious.



Not to nitpick as it's usually a typo, but there may be some readers who may not be aware of the difference. We need to be accurate when discussing the safety issues involved. Inaccuracy erodes credibility.
__________________
Steve Sipe

https://maerin.net
Maerin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 06:03 PM   #65
Guru
 
Cigatoo's Avatar
 
City: Narragansett Bay
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36 Classic #715
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by porman View Post
I've got an older Honda 2000 with regular 15 amp outlets. Bought it in 2001 to use when our power goes out at our house during windstorms. I thought I would try it on our Mainship to possibly use as a backup. The reverse polarity light on the electrical panel goes on. I was told by someone on the dock that I should connect the ground to neutral at the generator. What do you electrical experts say about that?
This from ABYC.

“The only AC neutral to ground (connecting the white wire to a green wire) connections on board are made at generators or inverters, and then only when they are invert mode. Additionally, if the boat is equipped with an isolation transformer, then the boat side of the transformer becomes a new source of AC power and therefore a neutral to ground link is established.

The mistake the land based electricians will often make is to link the neutral and grounding buss bars behind the main power distribution panels on the boat. This simple error will create a situation where as each AC appliance gets turned on, more and more current from the appliances that would normally return to its source via the neutral conductor gets dumped into the boat’s grounding system.

Combine that with a bit of not so great dock wiring and the current enters the water via a through-hull fitting, creating a potentially lethal situation for swimmers near your boat.

The lesson here? Keep your cousin Vinny the licensed electrician away from your boat’s AC wiring until he gets some training on MARINE electricity. My shameless plug? Make sure the person working on your boat’s electrical system is ABYC certified in electricity.”

https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504...t-Tips?tag=ESD
Cigatoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 06:31 PM   #66
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
Guy we cruised with lost his outdrive to electrolysis from a portable.

Perhaps post a link from any genset manufacturer with the guidelines or schematic on how to set it up correctly in marine use.
The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 07:49 PM   #67
Senior Member
 
schrater's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma, WA
Vessel Name: Matilda
Vessel Model: Ponderosa (CHB) 35' Sundeck
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.


I think psneeld has it here. Simple application. Small and efficient portable gas generator, run up on deck, for a few hours while awake and monitoring, with the basic shore power cable plugged in to run the charger, in the odd situation where necessary for longer stays on the hook.

There are a million “what ifs”, but none of those fit the profile the OP (me) posited.
schrater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 08:04 PM   #68
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116 2008
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 10,595
Daymn, I did not realize people were trying to power their boat with a portable generator. I should have suspected it when they talked about powering their A/CSs
__________________
Two days out the hospital after a week in the hospital because of a significant heart attack.
OldDan1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 08:54 PM   #69
Guru
 
porman's Avatar
 
City: Duvall, Wa. USA
Vessel Name: Beach Music II
Vessel Model: 2003 Mainship 430 Trawler
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,040
Cigatoo, thank you for the information. Based on the first paragraph it looks like it is OK to connect the white and green wires together at the generator.
porman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 12:19 AM   #70
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigatoo View Post
This from ABYC.

“The only AC neutral to ground (connecting the white wire to a green wire) connections on board are made at generators or inverters, and then only when they are invert mode. Additionally, if the boat is equipped with an isolation transformer, then the boat side of the transformer becomes a new source of AC power and therefore a neutral to ground link is established.

The mistake the land based electricians will often make is to link the neutral and grounding buss bars behind the main power distribution panels on the boat. This simple error will create a situation where as each AC appliance gets turned on, more and more current from the appliances that would normally return to its source via the neutral conductor gets dumped into the boat’s grounding system.

Combine that with a bit of not so great dock wiring and the current enters the water via a through-hull fitting, creating a potentially lethal situation for swimmers near your boat.

The lesson here? Keep your cousin Vinny the licensed electrician away from your boat’s AC wiring until he gets some training on MARINE electricity. My shameless plug? Make sure the person working on your boat’s electrical system is ABYC certified in electricity.”

https://abycinc.org/blogpost/1678504...t-Tips?tag=ESD
I found that - the neutral and safety busbars bonded together - on my boat two years ago. I looked for it, and found it, after reading about its ill affects here.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 05:47 AM   #71
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by schrater View Post
I think psneeld has it here. Simple application. Small and efficient portable gas generator, run up on deck, for a few hours while awake and monitoring, with the basic shore power cable plugged in to run the charger, in the odd situation where necessary for longer stays on the hook.

There are a million “what ifs”, but none of those fit the profile the OP (me) posited.

actually no...I plug the charger directly into the genset using an extension cord...though I used to use the shore power cord...I don't energize the whole boat system with the genset, it just charges batteries and if I need AC power, the boat outlets run off a marine grade, properly installed inveter.



by doing that I eliminate even the fearmongerers worry that by touching something electrical while the genset is running. Just so I won't cook myself because of wetnss, bad plugs, frayed wires, Halley's Comet, etc...etc... (even though I have managed for 65 years without zapping myselt )
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 06:00 AM   #72
Guru
 
City: Melbourne, FL
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,731
One negative to Honda's compact gensets is that it doesn't have a fuel shutoff. You either run it out of fuel or leave fuel in the carb for next time. There are aftermarket kits for the fuel shutoff valve for Honda gensets.
Yamaha's similar gensets do have the fuel shutoff valve so you close the valve and the genset sputters to a stop in a minute or so, leaving the carb dry.
stubones99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 07:16 AM   #73
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116 2008
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 10,595
Quote:
Originally Posted by stubones99 View Post
One negative to Honda's compact gensets is that it doesn't have a fuel shutoff. You either run it out of fuel or leave fuel in the carb for next time. There are aftermarket kits for the fuel shutoff valve for Honda gensets.
Yamaha's similar gensets do have the fuel shutoff valve so you close the valve and the genset sputters to a stop in a minute or so, leaving the carb dry.
A URL for the aftermarket shut off valve to the Honda please?
__________________
Two days out the hospital after a week in the hospital because of a significant heart attack.
OldDan1943 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 07:23 AM   #74
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
FWIW - one small harbor we boat out of ...Northport NY.
Two occurrences of Co poisoning causing deaths of 3 people in the past 3 seasons.
More if you consider the 'near misses' where folks were not killed.
Off topic - CO poisoning at Lake Powell has been common. Especially with kids swimming between tubes on large anchored houseboats.

There are all sorts of vessels with gas powered bilge mounted gensets ala SeaRay etc. I've had a few. CO issues a normal factor to watch out for with gasoline engines. It shouldn't dominate the pros and cons of portable genset brand and use discussions.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 07:48 AM   #75
Guru
 
Cigatoo's Avatar
 
City: Narragansett Bay
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36 Classic #715
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,857
Quote:
Originally Posted by porman View Post
Cigatoo, thank you for the information. Based on the first paragraph it looks like it is OK to connect the white and green wires together at the generator.
I would be very careful with a portable generator. I like Sneeds method. Direct connection from the appliance to the generator. Bypass the boat altogether. Also be careful with CO. CO can sneak up on you if you are not paying attention.
Cigatoo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 07:55 AM   #76
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The trick is not to hook it up to the whole boat or use it like a marine genset.


There's tons of info out there...


I just plug a battery charger or single appliance at a time into mine...low chance of shock or stray current.


Been doing it on 2 boats for nearly 20 years with no ill effects.

Perhaps post a link to any of these sites , one that you prefer.
Or a link to a marine article or surveyor that speaks about the best methods to utilize a portable genset on a boat.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 08:52 AM   #77
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
Perhaps post a link to any of these sites , one that you prefer.
Or a link to a marine article or surveyor that speaks about the best methods to utilize a portable genset on a boat.

Ah...using my same tactic against me...good call.



Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.



But me...a lowly, but highly experienced, well trained, but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need.


You can kill yourself a dozen ways every day on your boat if you don't think about what you are doing...all I am saying is be smarter than the guy who gets $500 an article to say it's unsafe because it's the easy and legally safe thing to write.


My reference to the abundant internet info is the stats that these guys use don't really prove much, the real dangers to life or limb are really small if careful and the anecdotal evidence of portable generator use compared to incidents is overwhelming.


Well...just to one up myself.......here was an article that I found in about 10 seconds of googling that echoes some of my thoughts....and virtually every danger is easily mitigated or fixed.


http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 09:43 AM   #78
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Ah...using my same tactic against me...good call.



Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.



But me...a lowly, but highly experienced, well trained, but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need.


You can kill yourself a dozen ways every day on your boat if you don't think about what you are doing...all I am saying is be smarter than the guy who gets $500 an article to say it's unsafe because it's the easy and legally safe thing to write.


My reference to the abundant internet info is the stats that these guys use don't really prove much, the real dangers to life or limb are really small if careful and the anecdotal evidence of portable generator use compared to incidents is overwhelming.


Well...just to one up myself.......here was an article that I found in about 10 seconds of googling that echoes some of my thoughts....and virtually every danger is easily mitigated or fixed.


http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/portable.pdf

"Of course any "licensed/certified/published Pro" is probably going to recommend against them if in writing.
That is what I have found as well.

Also - no insurance company that I know of will cover any liabilities or losses from carrying one that I know of.

"but unpublished pro falls back on his recurrent mantra of operational risk management where you take all the risks identified by the other "pros"...and mitigate or eliminate them. So now MY post becomes the only link you need"

Took your advice and looked one up....
https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/sta...erator-safety/
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 09:56 AM   #79
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 28,143
I don't believe you general claim that all insurance companies will deny claims involving portable generators. Too many variables.


Of course some safety foundation is going to regurgittae the same old stuff that is for the most part easy to deal with the hazards.


And finally...I feel a lot safer managing my little portable under very controlled conditions compared to a built in ABYC OKed gas genset below decks running all night to keep some cool or warm. All those same warnings can be applied at least in some fashion to built in gensets too.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2019, 10:13 AM   #80
Guru
 
City: Northport
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 2,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I don't believe you general claim that all insurance companies will deny claims involving portable generators. Too many variables.


Of course some safety foundation is going to regurgittae the same old stuff that is for the most part easy to deal with the hazards.


And finally...I feel a lot safer managing my little portable under very controlled conditions compared to a built in ABYC OKed gas genset below decks running all night to keep some cool or warm. All those same warnings can be applied at least in some fashion to built in gensets too.

Boating to us has always meant being around many folks of various ages on our boat and the boats we travel with.
Mitigating hazards has always required taking all of these people into account not just me.
Additionally we do require reasonable insurance as part of that reasonable risk mitigation.
Your posts do not indicate any insurance companies that might fit this portable genset issue, no marine electrical articles on how to wire them up , nor any articles on the best practices of safe use by the genset companies or any other recognized marine experts.
smitty477 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012