Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-23-2010, 10:19 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
Avista's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 106
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

For what I've put out for a Kahlenberg horn*, I think I'll be using it first.* If that doesn't work, perhaps I'll help clutter up the airways.* But then, I don't think I'll be passing many motorboats.* Sailboats?* They don't signal/radio.

*It has taken two weeks for the horn to pass through China's customs.*... Just found out there is a 40% duty on such imports coming from the U.S and 1.5% for imports to the U.S.* Is that how we define "fair trade?"* Fortunately since the horns will be installed on a Chinese export, there won't be any duty.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 10:23:06 AM
On the ICW here in Florida much of it is*in residential areas so as a courtesy to those folks we simply try to stay off the horns if not really needed.* We usually use Ch* 13 for the 'bridge to bridge" calls and on low power too of course so the airwaves aren't really that cluttered up, at least around here.* I can't even remember when I heard any of the larger rigs includings tugs and tows use their horns, it's mostly the smaller folks with the hand held air horns.* Like was posted earlier*we make a quick call something like "Lady Dee, would you like to slow up for a two whistle slow pass?"* Most of the time the reply is "Roger, thanks" the whole deal takes 10 seconds.

*
__________________
Advertisement

Avista is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 10:23 AM   #22
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Passing and being passed

I typically run at about 7 knots so I don't pass many boats. I do get passed by a lot of boats though. Not trawlers, mostly smaller center consoles and runabouts. There's no boater education requirement in South Carolina so many of these boaters do not know or care about the wakes they are creating. There's a law in SC requiring "no wake speed" within 50 feet of another vessel. They don't seem to know about that law either and I don't see it being enforced. On one trip on the ICW, the same CC passed and waked me three different times within a half hour or so. I don't expect someone to slow down to 8 or 9 knots in a small boat, but they could stay a little futher away in most cases when they pass.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 10:53 AM   #23
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

Out my way, the waterways pass mostly industrial or agricultural areas, and along the Strait there is 24/7 train-horn activity that can be heard from several miles away.
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 11:07 AM   #24
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Egregious wrote:

If I meet a SeaRay in The Rockpile he best slow down.* I'm staying in the middle.

Oh yeah, and if he was listening to his VHF he would have heard my securite call saying I'm coming through and it will be tight in the real messed up section around the VORTAC station.
Woody, here is a picture of Sea Rays coming through the Sunset Beach swing bridge.* Never mind that I and a couple of South bound boats behind me were there first.* There was a SeaRay cruise that came up on the other side.* They all pushed through first and gunned it.





*Yep, they seem to have the right of way!
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 11:17 AM   #25
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

No wonder.* Checked out all*of Sea Rays*current models and they all look basically the same.* That should attract the same type of personality.* The company's advertising would also strengthen that trend: "Purchase from Sea Ray and you get much more than a boat. You get a lifestyle that is unmatched in the marine industry."
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 11:34 AM   #26
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

No wonder.* Checked out all*of Sea Rays*current models and they all look basically the same.* That should attract the same type of personality.* The company's advertising would also strengthen that trend: "Purchase from Sea Ray and you get much more than a boat. You get a lifestyle that is unmatched in the marine industry."
Mark it seems to upset them a little when they are cruising at 22-24 knots, and I pass them.* They will not slow, so if there is room, I will put it up to about 32 knots and jump their wake.* I was behind one where everything slowed down near Cabbage Key, FL.* I asked if he would give me room for a slow pass.* He came back with, "just how fast do you cruise capt.".* I said that, "we had been making 27 knots".* The raidio went quiet.* In a minute or so he came back with, "proceed capt."* He was out of sight about Captiva.* The most courteous SeaRay driver I have run across.

*
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 12:58 PM   #27
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Passing and being passed

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:*The reason the downstream boat has the right of way over the boat going up streem. Boats moving up stream have more control because of the flow moving past the rudder.,
That's actually not true, and is a question (when applied to airplanes) that trips up a ton of student pilots taking their Private Pilot exam.

A boat going x-speed through the water in any direction*will go that speed--- and see the same rate of waterflow past the rudder--- regardless of what direction the body of water is moving.* The boat is simply driving around in the water.* The fact the whole*body of water is moving in a particular direction has no relevance whatsoever on the speed of the boat through that water.* Regardles of whether the boat is going upstream or downstream, the boat will be going the same speed through the water no matter which direction it heads,* hence the speed of the water past the rudder will be the same, hence the steering control wil be the same.

What changes is the speed of the boat relative to the bottom and the shoreline and docks and stuff. A boat going upstream will be going--- relative to the bottom and shoreline--- x-speed through the water minus the speed of the water going the other way.* A boat going x-speed downstream will be going--- relative to the bottom and the shoreline--- x-speed plus the speed of the water.* A boat going x-speed directly across the direction of the current will be going--- relative to the bottom and shoreline---*x-speed forward over the bottom*but at the same time it will be carried downstream at the same speed as the current.* So the course over the bottom*will be diagonal.

Boats going downstream may appear to their drivers that they have less control.* They don't.* What they have is less time to do anything because they are going faster relative to their surroundings.* Where the boat going upstream is being slowed by the current relative to the surroundings and so there is all kinds of time to maneuver before getting to something.* But in both cases the boat itself is going the same speed through the water and has the same degree of control*(assuming the same power setting going both ways.)

The way I explained it as a flight instructor was to*think of it as walking through a train.* If the train is going 80 mph toward Chicago and you can walk at a speed of 3mph, is it any harder for you to walk to the front of the train than the back of the train?* No, it's not and you'll be walking 3mph with the same effort either direction.* But relative to Chicago, when you walk toward the front of the train you'll be moving toward Chicago at 83 mph and when you walk to the back you'll be moving toward Chicago at 77 mph.* Your boat in a current is no different.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:01:52 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:08 PM   #28
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Marin wrote:


skipperdude wrote:*The reason the downstream boat has the right of way over the boat going up streem. Boats moving up stream have more control because of the flow moving past the rudder.,
That's actually not true, and is a question (when applied to airplanes) that trips up a ton of student pilots taking their Private Pilot exam.

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.* I have asked my niece, Caroline who is a decent paddler, to demonstrate the reason for this.* Oblerve.

Jeff B. this was in New Zealand. You may recognize the place.



*
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	caroline_new_zealand email.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	63.2 KB
ID:	3892  
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:24 PM   #29
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Passing and being passed

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.

*
I don't think there is such a thing as "right of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."* But I could be mistaken.

The reason a downstream boat is considered the stand-on vessel is obvious, or should be.* As I said, it is no less maneuverable than the upstream vessel but it has a lot less time--- and depending on the speed of the current perhaps a LOT less time-- to maneuver clear of things that aren't being moved by the same current.* Where the give-way vessel going upstream has more time to maneuver clear of obstacles because of its lower speed relative to the bottom, the shoreline, and things attached to the shoreline and bottom like bridges and stuff.

But a vessel going downstream in a current and a vessel going upstream in the same current are closing on each other at exactly the same rate of speed they would be if they were approaching each other (at the same power settings) in dead calm water.

Boat speed through the water is generated by two things--- the power being applied to the boat and the wind.* Boat speed over the ground and relative to anything attached to the ground is generated by the power setting, the wind, and the current.

PS-* I suppose I should have said "Boat speed through level water...." as opposed to the water in your illustration where gravity is playing a major role in boat speed

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:27:02 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:30 PM   #30
Guru
 
Capn Chuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 899
Passing and being passed

We have done about 20 trips on the ICW and have seen and experienced about everything. One of our website posts, says a lot, http://tinyurl.com/dnanlh including some info on passing. But if we want to cite the letter of the law, if another boat does not slow down enough so that you can safely pass, you being the burdened vessel, than according to the rules of the road, you do not pass if you can't do it safely and there is no rule requiring the boat being overtaken to slow down. I know many are going to argue the fact but if it ever came in front of an Admiralty Court, you would be at fault. The biggest issue and complaint we hear over and over is the failure of the boat being overtaken to respond to the radio. We slow a lot of them down by pointing a camera at them as they approach from the stern. We do always answer the radio and slow down for faster boats. Chuck


-- Edited by Capn Chuck on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 02:32:13 PM
Capn Chuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:32 PM   #31
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Marin wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:

I didn't look in the Colregs, but Chapman definitely says that a downstresm boat in a restricted channel has the right of way.

*
I don't think there is such a thing as "right of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."*Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.

*
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:37 PM   #32
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

The downstream exception applies (downstream superior to upstream)*to the Great Lakes, the "Western" Rivers,*and otherwise designated.* The downward-bound vessel proposes the manner of passsing and initiates the whistle signals.
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:47 PM   #33
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Marin wrote:

of way" in the Colregs.* There is "stand on" and "give way," but I don't recall every seeing any mention of "right of way."* But I could be mistaken.

"Right of way" isn't a concept used for normal meeting situations, but it is in the context of the upstream/downstream navigation rule.* It's an exception.

*
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:49 PM   #34
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
RE: Passing and being passed

I am not sure I agree.

I have run rivers in Alaska in jet boats for many years. If going up stream in a river at say 10 knts with the current at 10 knts. I am standing still. A*boat coming down stream is going 20 knts. Going up I can maneuver left and right in an instant.**The boat coming down will be forced all over the place by the current. It will also cover a lot of ground making a turn.
Perhaps I am equating this wrong as a jet boat has no rudder.**Direction is controled by direction of the nozzel* and the current.

Some one has to have the right of way.

Or the get out of the way.*

SD
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:53 PM   #35
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

Are Alaskan rivers subject to the upstream/downstream navigation rule?
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 01:57 PM   #36
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,251
RE: Passing and being passed

Fortunately, all the boats on this four-day cruise were observed going downstream.

markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 02:19 PM   #37
Guru
 
skipperdude's Avatar
 
City: Whittier AK
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Apache II
Vessel Model: 1974 Donald Jones
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,147
Passing and being passed

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

Are Alaskan rivers subject to the upstream/downstream navigation rule?
I'm not sure on that one. I have never heard anyone making an issue of it.

When you are on a river in Alaska.*If something happens it is sort of every man for himself. It is usually hundreds of miles to the nearest anything.

there is only about 3/4 of a million people in*a state as big as 1/2 the country.
*Thats why most people always go up river because you can always float out.
Going down river if something happens you're stuck and out of luck.

*A friend of mine learned the hard way and had to float over 200 miles to the coast when he sucked rocks in his impeller. It took him about 4 days.*luck would have it that he had shot a moose so was able to eat.
*

I have learned to field strip an outboard with just a leatherman and a pair of vicegrips.

If you can't get it done yourself there is no one to call for help.

Cell phones don't work off the road system.

SD



*


-- Edited by skipperdude on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 06:23:23 PM
skipperdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 02:47 PM   #38
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:

Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.
That's true, of course.* On the other hand, if the upstream boat loses or removes power, within a few seconds or minutes depending on the size and weight*of the vessel it, too will travelling downstream*at the speed of the current with no control

*
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 03:06 PM   #39
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Passing and being passed

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:I have run rivers in Alaska in jet boats for many years. If going up stream in a river at say 10 knts with the current at 10 knts. I am standing still. A*boat coming down stream is going 20 knts. Going up I can maneuver left and right in an instant.**The boat coming down will be forced all over the place by the current. It will also cover a lot of ground making a turn.
Everything you say is correct, but not for the reason I believe you think.**The downstream boat is being forced all over the place and making wide turns because of*the compressed time*that results from going downstream.* The turn is made wide relative to the river because of the additional speed over the ground from the current.* The boat is covering a lot more territory in a lot less time, which tends to make*turns seem wider (they ARE wider relative to the*river bottom and banks) and move around within the banks a lot more.* Also, a narrow river generally has all sorts of mini-currents, eddies, and upwelling*that can shove a boat around a lot as it transits from one section of water moving at*x-speed into another* section of water moving at y-speed and possibly in a different direction.* Given the compression of time as you go downriver, all this jerking around can make you feel that you have less control.* And depending on what the currents, eddies, and upwelling*are actually doing, you may have less control from time to time.

Going upriver it appears that you are able to maneuver in an instant, but you actually aren't in terms of your boat's movement through the water.* But heading into a strong current your forward progress relative to the bottom and banks*is slow, so when you put the helm or motor hard over it appears that you are dashing off to the side very quickly.* It appears this way because your rate of sideways movement relative to the banks hasn't been changed by the current but your forward progress has.* So*it appears as though you can*zip back and forth very fast, because compared to your greatly reduced forward progress, you are zipping back and forth very fast.* Where your buddy doing the same thing going the other way is being carried WAY downstream by the current*so he not only moves side to side (at the same rate your are assuming equal boats) he's also*covering a huge amount*of ground down the river which elongates all his maneuvers.

As I said,*this business of how things move in a fluid that itself is moving*is a difficult concept for many people to grasp*for whatever reason.* The FAA has*a question on it's Private Pilot test that asks*what the*difference in the airspeed reading will be*if a plane flying into a 20 knot headwind turns around and flys the other way with a 20 knot tailwind.* It has always surprised me how many students get it wrong.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 23rd of December 2010 04:09:25 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2010, 03:23 PM   #40
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
RE: Passing and being passed

Quote:
Marin wrote:


Moonstruck wrote:

Marin, I will give on the semantics of right of way and stand on.* The main reason for this is that a downstream boat with no headway on will still be traveling at the speed of the current with no control.
That's true, of course.* On the other hand, if the upstream boat loses or removes power, within a few seconds or minutes depending on the size and weight*of the vessel it, too will travelling downstream*at the speed of the current with no control

*

That is true, but the downstream boat is by definition downstream of the upstream boat.* It should pose no or little danger to the upstream boat.* If it loses power, I guess the upstream boat is burdened because he is overtaking.

*
__________________

Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012