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01-05-2012, 07:39 PM
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#1
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Senior Member
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Fluke
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 131
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Paper Charts
I use paper charts to double check my Nobletec running on a laptop. I do not update the paper IAW notice to mariners. They were accurate in 1984 but not today. *
It is true that buoys have been added and numbers on buoys have changed. I am trying to think of something changing on paper that would really be a need to know item. The substantial relocation of a marker or buoy *would be significant I think.*
My travels are in Washington and British Columbia.*Am I in the minority as far as not religiously updating paper charts?
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01-05-2012, 08:25 PM
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#2
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Guru
City: Miami Florida
Vessel Name: Possum
Vessel Model: Ellis 28
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 5,307
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RE: Paper Charts
Judging from my sales of paper charts I'd say you're in the minority for even having a paper chart. Your charts were not accurate in 1984. Charts have errors on them the day they are printed. You just have to be aware of that and keep your eyes open. Don't forget that electronic charts have errors also. That said, if I was going somewhere I wasn't familiar with, I'd want a fresh chart.
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01-05-2012, 08:33 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: Edmonds, WA
Vessel Name: WESTERLY
Vessel Model: 1974 Pacific Trawler 37
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 502
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RE: Paper Charts
My chart porfolio for our cruising waters includes charts dated back as far as 1964, and includes charts dated 2011.
Every year we buy a select number of new paper charts to add.
Of course, it's important to understand that basically the rocks/reefs do not change, but the ATON'S might.*
So the navigation challenge is to compare all charted aids with observed aids, and then make a quick correction, if required.* What happens is that this process greatly*improve situational awareness, which has a positive effect on safety.
So, the answer is that paper charts are not kept up-to-date until used.* Our electronic charts are updated weekly (at least for US waters).
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01-05-2012, 10:24 PM
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#4
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Veteran Member
City: Cochrane, Alberta
Vessel Name: Painters Cove
Vessel Model: 1997 Bayliner 5788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 88
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RE: Paper Charts
Quote:
Jay N wrote:
My chart porfolio for our cruising waters includes charts dated back as far as 1964, and includes charts dated 2011.
Every year we buy a select number of new paper charts to add.
Of course, it's important to understand that basically the rocks/reefs do not change, but the ATON'S might.*
So the navigation challenge is to compare all charted aids with observed aids, and then make a quick correction, if required.* What happens is that this process greatly*improve situational awareness, which has a positive effect on safety.
So, the answer is that paper charts are not kept up-to-date until used.* Our electronic charts are updated weekly (at least for US waters).
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*But previously uncharted rocks/reefs are still being found..........
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01-06-2012, 12:13 AM
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#5
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Scraping Paint
City: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,745
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RE: Paper Charts
Quote:
xfedex wrote:
My travels are in Washington and British Columbia.*Am I in the minority as far as not religiously updating paper charts?
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Don't know.* But we use paper charts at all times when we're cruising, along with our two large dedicated GPS chart plotters and the radar.* We do not update the charts as land masses don't move much around here and it's been our experience and observation in this area that navaids---on shore or in the water--- rarely change.
We have a chart board next to the helm that holds the big MapTech format chart books we have for Puget Sound, the Gulf Islands, Sunshine Coast, Desolation Sound, etc.* Plus we have all the full size NOAA and Canadian charts for the entire area from the San Juans up to Queen Charlotte Strait rolled up and stored in the aft cabin.* We rarely use the full-size charts unless we're in an area not covered by one of the big chartbooks.
We like having the paper charts at the helm because we can get the "big picture" in an instant without having to zoom in or out, and there is less clutter on the paper charts than on the electronic charts displays simply by virtue of the size difference.*
We do not plot courses except for those that we use frequently, and we plotted them on the paper charts years ago.* But having these courses on paper is a good backup in case the electronics go down, which they never have in the 13 years we've owned the boat.
So while our primary means of navigation are the two plotters, the radar, and the compass, we do find the paper charts useful on almost every cruise.
Both my wife and I like and are very much at home with paper charts, me from flying and my wife from both flying and her stint in the Navy.* So we just like having them around.
To someone who doesn't like messing with paper charts, or doesn't like them, or doesn't believe in them, the reliability of electronics these days makes it very unlikely that a failure will leave a person blind.* So I don't have any issue with people who say they don't have any paper charts on board and use only electronics.
But we wouldn't take the boat out--- actually either boat because we use paper on the Arima, too, along with its GPS plotter--- without having the paper charts with us.
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01-06-2012, 02:45 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 380
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RE: Paper Charts
what about wrecks?
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01-06-2012, 03:24 AM
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#7
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
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RE: Paper Charts
In coastal areas we use the paper charts , and at displacement speeds its no bother to x the old buoy number and write in the new one.
A small hand held GPS gives position and route .
Some ICW charts from the late 60's have 5 or 6 re-numberings per location , but then we don't travel every year.
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01-06-2012, 06:27 AM
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#8
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Guru
City: Holladay, UT
Vessel Name: Dream Catcher
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 37-065
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 841
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RE: Paper Charts
FWIW, there are several completely new, and much higher quality, charts for the central BC coast in the last several years.
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01-06-2012, 09:58 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
City: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Vessel Model: I have keys to lots of boats...
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 438
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Paper Charts
I own paper charts from Texas to Maine and will bring them with me for a delivery, they are old and do not have all the updates but I can use them for planning much easier than a plotter. Many of the boats I am moving will have newer paper charts, but I like to use my own personal charts because I have written many comments about the Intracoastal, about shoaling areas, changes of markers, good restaurants, bridge clearances and names, and more.
-- Edited by yachtbrokerguy on Friday 6th of January 2012 11:59:43 AM
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01-06-2012, 10:17 AM
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#11
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Moderator Emeritus
City: San Jose, CA
Vessel Name: Pineapple Girl 3
Vessel Model: Silverton 38c
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,171
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RE: Paper Charts
Around the SF bay we rarely break out the paper charts.*
In the Delta last summer we always had a paper "chart" out.* I have "chart" in quotes as we notced after we started using it that it was marked "not for navigation".* This is one of those Maptech ones that folds up like a map you'd have had in your car back in the day.* I have already been shopping for NOAA CHARTS of the area for when we go back this summer.* I was looking at the Print on Demand which seem to be as up to date as anything is going to be.* Many times the GPS/CP was enough off to get us in trouble if we weren't watching the paper as well.*
If I was going somewhere new to me I would definitely want recent*paper charts to cross reference with my GPS/CP.
Depending where we are going we will check for notice to mariner info.* in particular there is a sometimes gaurded exclusionary zone on the way to the delta at the Naval Weapons depot.* We check if the zone is in force and how the alternate channel is marked (yuo have to go outside the regular channel to stay outside the zone).* Young people with large guns will come over and yell at you if you are not in the correct place.
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01-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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#12
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Scraping Paint
City: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,745
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Paper Charts
Quote:
tinped wrote:
what about wrecks?
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Since we're usually in water that's 200-600 feet deep, a wreck is not something we lose any sleep over.* We have boats that go up on the rocks now and then but since we don't make a habit of navigating through the same rocks, their fate is of no consequence to us.* And*most if not all of these boats are eventually recovered one way or the other.
If I recall correctly the water under our keel when I took the attached photo was some 800' deep.* And it was probably 100' deep a boat length or two from either shoreline.* So wrecks don't seem to pose any sort of navigational issue around here, at least not that I've ever heard.
*
-- Edited by Marin on Friday 6th of January 2012 03:20:36 PM
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01-06-2012, 12:36 PM
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#13
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Scraping Paint
City: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,745
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RE: Paper Charts
Quote:
Pineapple Girl wrote:
*I have "chart" in quotes as we notced after we started using it that it was marked "not for navigation".* This is one of those Maptech ones that folds up like a map you'd have had in your car back in the day.*
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I would have thought with all the boating activity in SFO that there would be a large MapTech-type chartbook available for the bay, river, delta, etc.* The big chart books--- if you have the space to lay them out--- are great.* I've posted this photo before but it shows how our portable*"chart table" fits over the companionway to the forward cabin.* Very handy.
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01-06-2012, 12:55 PM
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#14
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TF Site Team
City: Saltspring Island
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,663
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RE: Paper Charts
what about wrecks?
*
In BC, if the wreck is in a "fairway"* it has to get removed.* Almost everywhere else, as Marin points out, is either a known hazard, so you won't go there, or is so deep that the wreck is of no consequence.
If the wreck is insured, the insurance co will salvage, to determine whether it was an intentional or accidental wreck.
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01-06-2012, 01:30 PM
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#15
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Guru
City: San Diego
Vessel Name: Circuit Breaker
Vessel Model: 2021..22' Duffy Cuddy cabin
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,691
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RE: Paper Charts
Quote:
Marin wrote:I've posted this photo before but it shows how our portable*"chart table" fits over the companionway to the forward cabin.* Very handy.
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* * * * Same here but mine is hinged.
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01-06-2012, 01:53 PM
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#16
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Guru
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 897
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RE: Paper Charts
Like Marin, we have our paper charts out when we are cruising. Not so much when we are puttering around in local waters. Many, many, many times we refer to the paper charts to view and clarify things that don't show on our plotter or computer, both of which we also have running when under way. You just can't have too much information. Chuck
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01-06-2012, 02:30 PM
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#17
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Master and Commander
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,559
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RE: Paper Charts
With GPS/charter and radar on, I usually have the paper chart out too.* The paper chart gives me a larger view while the electronic chart has more detail when zoomed in.
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01-06-2012, 08:16 PM
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#18
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Guru
City: Edmonds, WA
Vessel Name: WESTERLY
Vessel Model: 1974 Pacific Trawler 37
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 502
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RE: Paper Charts
*But previously uncharted rocks/reefs are still being found..........
Even if you have your charts updated weekly, and listen to broadcast notice to mariners (US) and regularly monitor Ch 16 for safety transmissions, you* always run the risk that you will find something that no one else has found.
But the odds are very, very slight, especially in this age of surveying with side-scan sonar, etc.
On the other hand, I am not as trusting of certain SE Alaska charts.* There are still a few that note survey information gathered by the Russians in the 1800's.
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01-07-2012, 06:00 AM
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#19
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Guru
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,276
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RE: Paper Charts
We use the belt, suspenders, and probably te elastic band system. *When not running radar, we use the second display to display a large area of the chart to keep up with our progress. *The first display is zoomed in to show as much detaiil as possible. *Then there is the paper chart in front of the navigator station under a Lexan cover.
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01-07-2012, 08:48 AM
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#20
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Guru
City: Concrete Washington State
Vessel Name: Willy
Vessel Model: Willard Nomad 30'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,743
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RE: Paper Charts
When I designed and built this boat I made the "dashboard" large enough and slanted so I could use a large chart while underway. One can fold a chart in thirds and so you deed'nt "run" right next to a fold, fold it in half also. As for chart storage my Albin had a good recommendation. Under the bunk mattress. But they will get a little black mould on them in damp places like SEA over time.
Eric
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