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Old 01-20-2012, 07:00 PM   #81
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RE: Paper Charts

If you want to*update electronic charts what do you do, use whiteout on the screen?
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Old 01-20-2012, 08:53 PM   #82
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RE: Paper Charts

Not sure about the US but in Canada you are required to carry the most recent editions of largest scale chart of the areas you are navigating. Charts must be paper. ENCs or RNCs on a chartplotter to not suffice.*

For smaller vessels this requirement may be waived if the skipper can prove he has extensive local knowledge (shipping routes, lights, buoys and marks, and prevailing navigational conditions)

I suspect it would be hard* to prove to your insurance company that you had sufficient local knowledge after hitting a rock without the appropriate charts onboard.
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:06 AM   #83
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RE: Paper Charts

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Doug wrote:
Not sure about the US but in Canada you are required to carry the most recent editions of largest scale chart of the areas you are navigating. Charts must be paper. ENCs or RNCs on a chartplotter to not suffice.*

For smaller vessels this requirement may be waived if the skipper can prove he has extensive local knowledge (shipping routes, lights, buoys and marks, and prevailing navigational conditions)

I suspect it would be hard* to prove to your insurance company that you had sufficient local knowledge after hitting a rock without the appropriate charts onboard.

There must be a size cutoff fot chart requirements.* I can't imagine paper charts on an 18' bow rider or 22' center console.

Or an aluminum duck boat.
*
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:10 AM   #84
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RE: Paper Charts

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Carey wrote:..........*As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.
A paper chart is pretty worhless if you don't know where you are on the chart.

Neither is foolproof.

*
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Old 01-21-2012, 10:47 AM   #85
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RE: Paper Charts

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rwidman wrote:Carey wrote:..........*As to whether an electronic copy is acceptable, I would guess that it is not, considering there is no guarantee that it would be accessible when needed.
A paper chart is pretty worhless if you don't know where you are on the chart.

Neither is foolproof.

*

There is one tool, when combined with paper charts works quite well. It's called situational awareness. A handheld compass and bearings off of landmarks will help you tighten up your position. What did we ever do without electronics?
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:07 AM   #86
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RE: Paper Charts

I was always taught that the art of*navagation wasn't figuring out where you are but the art of confirming what you already know.

*
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:07 AM   #87
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RE: Paper Charts

Carey... "situational awareness"? Hmmm.... sounds an awful lot like "common sense". I'll blindly trust my GPS and other electronic gizmos to tell me what to do... then if anything bad happens, I can just call the USCG and then blame the GPS maker (or society) for my mistakes....

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Old 01-21-2012, 12:16 PM   #88
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RE: Paper Charts

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psneeld wrote:
I was always taught that the art of*navagation wasn't figuring out where you are but the art of confirming what you already know.

*
That's probably true today, alhtough the captain of the Costa Concordia apparently didn't do either one.*

But guys like Cook, La Perouse, Vancouver, etc. didn't know where they were much of the time other than what their navigation observations and calculations told them.* No charts (other than the ones they were drawing on the spot) and no idea about what lay around the next point.

But they all managed to get around pretty good.
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Old 01-21-2012, 01:48 PM   #89
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RE: Paper Charts

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rwidman wrote:There must be a size cutoff fot chart requirements.* I can't imagine paper charts on an 18' bow rider or 22' center console.
Or an aluminum duck boat.
The Canadian Hdrographic Services also publishs strip charts and chart books which are more convenient on smaller boats.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:31 PM   #90
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Paper Charts

I asked my*cousin in Vancouver,*works for*Environment Canada,*and he says paper charts are not required under 100 gross tons for pleasure boats and here is the*regulation per Environment Canada.* He also said local knowledge or available reference material such as chart book, tide book, or chartplotter would be acceptable.

"To help make navigation safer, you must carry the following for each area you plan to boat in:
<ul>[*]the latest edition of the largest scale chart (when available); and[*]the latest edition of related documents and publications, including Notices to Mariners, Sailing Directions, tide and current tables, and the List of Lights, Buoys and Fog Signals.[/list]"If you are operating a boat under 100 gross tons, you do not have to carry these charts, documents and publications on board as long as you know:"
<ul>[*]the location and type of charted:<ul>[*]shipping routes;[*]lights, buoys and marks; and[*]boating hazards; and[/list][*]the areas usual boating conditions such as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns."[/list]*p.s.* He said just don't hand them a restaurant place mat!

Oops!!* Sorry my Cousin works for Transport Canada, the information on chart regulations was from Environment Canada

*


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Saturday 21st of January 2012 04:27:34 PM
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:33 PM   #91
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RE: Paper Charts

Quote:
Doug wrote:
Not sure about the US but in Canada you are required to carry the most recent editions of largest scale chart of the areas you are navigating. Charts must be paper. ENCs or RNCs on a chartplotter to not suffice.*

For smaller vessels this requirement may be waived if the skipper can prove he has extensive local knowledge (shipping routes, lights, buoys and marks, and prevailing navigational conditions)

I suspect it would be hard* to prove to your insurance company that you had sufficient local knowledge after hitting a rock without the appropriate charts onboard.
Doug, I thought paper charts were mandatory too, however there seems to be a slight change in the rules. *It appears that charts may now be in electronic form if displayed on an ECDIS using ENC or RNC but there must be a back-up arrangement in the case of failure of the ECDIS.* This back-up arrangement must be a completely separate electronic system meeting approved IMO performance standards or the backup can be the aforementioned paper charts!
*
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:37 PM   #92
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RE: Paper Charts

In addition to the big MapTech-type charbooks and various guidebooks we have the US and Canadian sailing directions that include Puget Sound and the BC coast. While big and bulky, the sailing directions books have come in very handy at times. Well worth having on board in my opinion, no matter where you boat.
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Old 01-21-2012, 02:46 PM   #93
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RE: Paper Charts

Quote:
Edelweiss wrote:
I asked my*cousin in Vancouver,*works for*Environment Canada,*and he says paper charts are not required under 100 gross tons for pleasure boats and here is the*regulation per Environment Canada.* He also said local knowledge or available reference material such as chart book, tide book, or chartplotter would be acceptable.

"To help make navigation safer, you must carry the following for each area you plan to boat in:
<ul>[*]the latest edition of the largest scale chart (when available); and[*]the latest edition of related documents and publications, including Notices to Mariners, Sailing Directions, tide and current tables, and the List of Lights, Buoys and Fog Signals.[/list]"If you are operating a boat under 100 gross tons, you do not have to carry these charts, documents and publications on board as long as you know:"
<ul>[*]the location and type of charted:<ul>[*]shipping routes;[*]lights, buoys and marks; and[*]boating hazards; and[/list][*]the areas usual boating conditions such as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns."[/list]*p.s.* He said just don't had them a restaurant place mat!



-- Edited by Edelweiss on Saturday 21st of January 2012 03:34:32 PM
We are governed by The Canada Shipping Act and it states that*<strong style="background-color:#FFFFFF;">all vessels[/b] must have the largest available scale charts by the Canadian Hydrographic Service and that these charts must be kept up to date.* As you mentioned, the only exclusion to that rule is for a smaller size of vessel whose master has 'sufficient local knowledge'.

Regarding that 'sufficient local knowledge', one cruiser on Lake Ontario that we know of was stopped by our Coast Guard, and not having the appropriate charts, was actually asked several questions about local buoys and navigational hazards in the area.* He flunked the test and was fined I dont remember the amount.)
Needless to say we carry updated paper charts (we have electronic one too!)
*
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:22 AM   #94
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RE: Paper Charts

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Delia Rosa wrote:Regarding that 'sufficient local knowledge', one cruiser on Lake Ontario that we know of was stopped by our Coast Guard, and not having the appropriate charts, was actually asked several questions about local buoys and navigational hazards in the area.* He flunked the test and was fined I dont remember the amount.)
Needless to say we carry updated paper charts (we have electronic one too!)

Seriously, are you saying that a guy pulling a wakeboarder with an 18' bowrider is required to carry charts or be able to recite the location of bouys in his/her area?

How about a guy fishing from a jon boat with a 25HP outboard?

I'm in the USA, not Canada,*and I get the annual USCG Auxilliary safety inspection and I've never been asked to produce charts, paper or electronic.* Flares and PFDs, yes. Polution and waste dumping placards, yes.* Fire extinguishers and documentation, yes.* Never charts.
*
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Old 01-22-2012, 09:54 AM   #95
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RE: Paper Charts

Most of the time, the Coast Guard or appropriate authority isn't going to bother anyone who is handling his boat in an appropriate manner other than the occasional spot check... and wouldn't give that boater a hard time if he didn't have the appropriate charts. *However, that boater should be able to answer basic questions about their area. *(I've seen many a boater go around the buoys on the wrong side and ground themselves.. or hit rocks they didn't realize were there).

Also, you never know what kind of 'mood' the officer is going to be in, and legally if the master of the boat doesn't have the correct info or charts, never mind all the rest of the stuff he is supposed to have on board, in Canada he can be fined.

There seems to be differences in the tolerence level for certain things in the US and Canada for boaters. *For example, in Canada, there is zero tolerence for alcohol when cruising on pleasure boats *- not just the captain, also the crew and guests.

On the other hand, once we were boarded by the US Coast Guard and they cited us for not having the name of our vessel on our life ring. (no fine, just a warning!)
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Old 01-22-2012, 10:03 AM   #96
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RE: Paper Charts

Quote:
rwidman wrote:
....I'm in the USA, not Canada,*and I get the annual USCG Auxilliary safety inspection and I've never been asked to produce charts, paper or electronic.* Flares and PFDs, yes. Polution and waste dumping placards, yes.* Fire extinguishers and documentation, yes.* Never charts.*
We had a Vessel Safety Check (VSC) by a CG Aux crew 2008.* I just pulled out my copy.* There are 15 main items that are for the VSC decal which are required just as Rwidman says.* There is another section that is titled Recommended and Discussed Items and under the title,*the form says "While encouraged, items below are not VSC requirements".* This section has 8 main items such as marine radio, mounted fire extinguishers, dewatering device & backup, etc.* Under discussed items there is a section for nautical charts/navigation aids.* It's interesting that the navigation rules are a VSC requirement but charts aren't.
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Old 01-22-2012, 11:21 AM   #97
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RE: Paper Charts

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Delia Rosa wrote:

On the other hand, once we were boarded by the US Coast Guard and they cited us for not having the name of our vessel on our life ring. (no fine, just a warning!)

Strange, at least for a boat the size of mine and smaller, a life ring is not a requirement, just an approved "throwable floatation device".* Usually, this is a $10 cushion about 16" square with two hoops sewn on.* And no name is required on the throwable device.* Actually, a vessel isn't required to be named at all unles it's a Federally documented vessel.*
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:01 PM   #98
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Paper Charts

When we were boarded by the US Coast Guard near Gloucester MA, they brought along with them a little blue book *(They left it behind in error and we still have it on board). *This book is their bible of what to look for and the list was long and much more complete than what is posted on the website for the US Coast Guard Boating Safety. *

I can't remember the complete list for a vessel the size of ours, but in addition to the usual things like life jackets, flares, horn, fire extinguisher etc... it also included things like an axe, a bucket, 50 foot heaving line, life buoy with vessel name, reboarding device... and the list goes on!!!


-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Sunday 22nd of January 2012 02:03:12 PM
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Old 01-22-2012, 01:52 PM   #99
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RE: Paper Charts

Quote:
Delia Rosa wrote:
When we were boarded by the US Coast Guard near Gloucester MA, they brought along with them a little blue book *(They left it behind in error and we still have it on board). *This book is their bible of what to look for and the list was long and much more complete than what is posted on the website for the US Coast Guard Boating Safety. *

I can't remember the complete list for a vessel the size of ours, but in addition to the usual things like life jackets, flares, horn, fire extinguisher etc... it also included things like an axe, a bucket, 50 foot heaving line, life buoy with vessel name, reboarding device... and the list goes on!!!



-- Edited by Delia Rosa on Sunday 22nd of January 2012 02:03:12 PM
*Sounds like guidelines for boarding an inspected vessel...not a UPV or rec boat.
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Old 01-22-2012, 02:05 PM   #100
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RE: Paper Charts

Next time we go to the boat, I will have to check the title of that little blue book!
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