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Old 06-17-2014, 08:18 PM   #21
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Have a 4' open array Navnet on my charter boat. My trawler came with a Garmin 18" dome. The trawler will be getting a 6KW 6' HD open array. Simply, when you are coming in the inlet in the fog, you need to know if the village idiot is fishing next to the inlet buoy. You need to know if the boat on the T head is moving. It's all about target seperation and a bigger antenna is better! While I don't go looking for fog and torrential down pours, I seem to find 1 or 2 every year. When you are in a situation where you only see what your radar shows you (past 50') seperation and clarity is everything.

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Old 06-17-2014, 08:21 PM   #22
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Have a 4' open array Navnet on my charter boat. My trawler came with a Garmin 18" dome. The trawler will be getting a 6KW 6' HD open array. Simply, when you are coming in the inlet in the fog, you need to know if the village idiot is fishing next to the inlet buoy. You need to know if the boat on the T head is moving. It's all about target seperation and a bigger antenna is better! While I don't go looking for fog and torrential down pours, I seem to find 1 or 2 every year. When you are in a situation where you only see what your radar shows you (past 50') seperation and clarity is everything.

Ted
Ted that's the reason my Garmin Radar radome is supplemented by FLIR it works wonders in the Pea Soup or heavy rain.
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Old 06-17-2014, 08:55 PM   #23
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Here's a pic comparison between a 6KW simrad and a 3G broadband. Click image for larger version

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Old 06-17-2014, 09:58 PM   #24
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Ted that's the reason my Garmin Radar radome is supplemented by FLIR it works wonders in the Pea Soup or heavy rain.
Bill
Hmm. So the Flir does well in fog too? I thought it was just an instrument for night vision.
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Old 06-17-2014, 10:14 PM   #25
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Here's a pic comparison between a 6KW simrad and a 3G broadband. Attachment 30620Attachment 30621
I guess I'm seeing a lot of target separation on the Simrad vs I'm not sure what on the 3G. Can you interpret those for us, Oliver? Really helpful, BTW.
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Old 06-17-2014, 10:43 PM   #26
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I guess I'm seeing a lot of target separation on the Simrad vs I'm not sure what on the 3G. Can you interpret those for us, Oliver? Really helpful, BTW.

Yeah the Simrad open array was spotty at .125 miles which is lowest setting. The simrad 3G is at 1/4 miles. This was at our dock in Boat Harbour. You can see this I where the 3G really shines.Click image for larger version

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Old 06-17-2014, 10:53 PM   #27
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Another picture at a range of 400ft.Click image for larger version

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Old 06-18-2014, 05:18 AM   #28
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That doesn't look like it is tuned correctly. I know the conventional wisdom is the Furuno is "best", but my Furuno 6kw open was much much much sharper than that at close range, say in a crowded anchorage, harbor or marina setting. It's not that much better. I'll have to see if I have a pic somewhere in the archives.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:36 AM   #29
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The number 1 reason for oa, though few will admit, is that it looks really cool.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:48 AM   #30
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Hmm. So the Flir does well in fog too? I thought it was just an instrument for night vision.
Yes it does exceptionally well in heavy fog especially close in. Also the FLIR has nothing to do with night vision, it has everything to do with detecting differences in the temperature of objects within it's field of view.
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:53 AM   #31
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Hmmm... I'd have guessed gain is set too high in those pics... on both units...

I'll maybe fire up our unit at the dock and see what that looks like for comparison. I know on the water when we're trolling, we can usually see our planer boards on the radar... and these are (relatively) tiny lo-profile things about 80' off our stern quarters...

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Old 06-18-2014, 11:49 AM   #32
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Yes it does exceptionally well in heavy fog especially close in. Also the FLIR has nothing to do with night vision, it has everything to do with detecting differences in the temperature of objects within it's field of view.
Bill
My FLIR (I don't remember the model, but I purchased in 5 years ago for a little over $10K, so it isn't their cheapie, but it isn't the $50K unit either) doesn't do well in heavy fog, and that doesn't surprise me since the water in the fog easily absorbs thermal energy. Absent fog, it is amazing -- you can see someone peeing 1000 feet away; you can tell how full someone's beer can is (even if there is no condensation on the outside).
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Old 06-18-2014, 12:08 PM   #33
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All infrared is pretty severely affected by moisture and rendered nearly useless quickly in tropical rain. Blackbody radiation is really negatively affected by warm, wet moisture (fog). I used to operate a FLIR on P-3's in the Navy and when we'd operate down south the tropical rains put me out of business pretty quickly. Radar (used in conjunction with FLIR and LLTV) is the sweetest setup.
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Old 06-18-2014, 12:29 PM   #34
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Mine has done well in heavy fog it's the distance gets more limited. Who's travelling fast in the fog anyway? Not me. It has great value in heavy fog when used in conjunction with Radar and AIS.
Mine is the 10k unit not the 50k, I have used the 50k version but not with boating.
Now NJ doesn't get tropical fog so I can agree with that statement.
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Old 06-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #35
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My FLIR (I don't remember the model, but I purchased in 5 years ago for a little over $10K, so it isn't their cheapie, but it isn't the $50K unit either) doesn't do well in heavy fog, and that doesn't surprise me since the water in the fog easily absorbs thermal energy. Absent fog, it is amazing -- you can see someone peeing 1000 feet away; you can tell how full someone's beer can is (even if there is no condensation on the outside).
The first airborne FLIR ever mounted on a helo (at least that's what we were told) was a prototype by Northrop back around 1982. It was on a USCG helo in Miami, Fl.

It was good enough to see the rough outlines of the rotting banana stalks that were pressed against the inside of the hull of a banana ship...can't remember if Dole or Chaquita.......

You could see lot's a other things...should'a had an "R" or "X" rating for younger co-pilots...
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Old 06-18-2014, 04:35 PM   #36
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We'll soon be replacing the antique Furuno 1721 radar on our DF44 with a new Garmin unit. For those of you who've had both, how would you rate open array vs dome? What can you see with open array that you could not with a dome? Are OA worth twice the price (or more)? Are the newer domes better than the older OAs? Just gearing up to yet another major purchase.



Thanks.
Radome antennae cost less, consume less power and have less windage. These are all attributes sailors find useful. Open arrays are the opposite end of the spectrum. New radomes vs. old open arrays might possibly get close, but they still are constrained by the physics of all radars. Power, pulse width, beam angle etc.. all being equal you could go either way, the problem is I don't think anyone produces a radome that is equal. To compare apples to apples, take the units price and divide it by the power to beam angle ratio (the higher this number the better). Should help you see the value per dollar of comparable units.



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Old 06-18-2014, 04:45 PM   #37
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Although I have never had both dome and OA installed at the same time on the same boat, so I can't give a direct comparison, but for what its worth, in my experience (which does not apply to broadband):
1. First, inside every dome IS an open array, so from that perspective the only difference is how the array is protected -- either it is completely within a dome, or it is in a housing covering only the array, which must therefore rotate. To house a 4' array requires a very large dome -- at that point OA make more sense; big arrays just don't fit in domes. So if you are comparing two equally sized arrays, everything else being equal, the dome will perform exactly the same as the OA. But, two benefits come from increasing the size of the array -- better target separation and more power. In my opinion, target separation is highly overrated. If I see an echo return on my radar, I avoid it whether it is one boat or two. Power, on the other hand, will return weaker targets more strongly and from a greater distance (at least so long as they don't fall below the horizon).
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Old 06-18-2014, 05:45 PM   #38
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Radome antennae cost less, consume less power and have less windage. These are all attributes sailors find useful. Open arrays are the opposite end of the spectrum. New radomes vs. old open arrays might possibly get close, but they still are constrained by the physics of all radars. Power, pulse width, beam angle etc.. all being equal you could go either way, the problem is I don't think anyone produces a radome that is equal. To compare apples to apples, take the units price and divide it by the power to beam angle ratio (the higher this number the better). Should help you see the value per dollar of comparable units.


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Cafesport, how do you divide a number BY a ratio? I understand how to divide into a ratio, but not by one.

Thanks again.
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:18 PM   #39
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A ratio is also a number. Take a 6kw unit with a 1.8 horizontal beam angle for $4000. (Simrad tx06s on defender's website). 6kw/1.8degrees=3.3kw /degree. $4000/3.3kw/degree=1212$/kW/degree. The 10kw unit is 5400 but it has a narrower beam width 1.2 and equates to 650$/kW/degree. Almost twice the value


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Old 06-18-2014, 06:23 PM   #40
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Can 4G dome (broadband) be judged like a 2kw dome vs 4kw open array? Aren't they different technologies?
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