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Old 05-21-2014, 12:29 AM   #21
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And I still have the Droid with navionics on it so that is 4x redundant.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:09 AM   #22
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Two things.

1. Redundancy. Have it.

2. While you may only use the lower helm 20% of the time, is it adequate to be 80% safe? Also, that 20% may well be when conditions and visibility are their worst.
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Old 05-21-2014, 09:08 AM   #23
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Thanks for the great post on the 4212. I have a 6212, 4212 and a 740s on my Mainship. I ended up getting a 740s and a 741xs. However it now looks like both plotters will reside at the lower helm. I'm about 90% that I am having the upper helm removed from my new to me Gulfstar 36.
I forgot the obvious that you can remote the 4200-7200 series MFD's video using a long VGA cable.
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Old 05-21-2014, 10:36 AM   #24
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This is great info, but I'm afraid I need the 101-level.

denloe1, it looks like you're mirroring your upper helm 4212 on a larger flat screen at the lower helm and controlling it with a remote. Is that right?

Some additional questions:

Can you get full functionality, including radar, sonar and cameras that way?

Is there much noticeable lag on the remote?

Are you using any kind of NMEA network for other inputs or the proprietary Garmin network?

Will any Garmin (or comparable) MFD with remote function and a VGA-out port work?

Can I run any installed MFD charts on a setup like that?

Sorry to have so many questions. I'll check with manufacturer's sites as well and I've found a few good explanations on line, but I'm very interested in real-world experiences.

Thanks all!
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:34 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denloe1 View Post
I have garmin 4212 on my upper helm that came from prior owner. I am frugal. There was nothing at lower helm. Used to be radar head which was gone. Just finished removing old scanner and cable. New garmin radome 24xhd now In place. To create lower helm MFD and redundancy, I installed an Intel I5 NUC, with flat screen VGA. I can run PC Nav software of various kinds that is fed by USB GPS. But the cool part is running a long VGA cable from the 4212 to the monitor. Just choose input. It repeats 2x as large the 4212 display. I control it with the garmin RF remote control!!!! They helped me be frugal. Attachment 30038Monitor cable and remote were less than $200.00. NUC and software less than 500.00. One app I run is Bluestacks android. Then I run my old navionics USA phone app on that. Plus I have the garmin app on my iPhone. So I am 3x redundant on gps. And have paper charts - the chart books I like very much. Photos are test of monitor next to 4212.

Still learning all the bells and whistles. Attachment 30037. I still have to finish all the wiring and mounting but it all works. GRIN

Nice- a good workable solution.

As the OP is building a new system from the ground up, I still say go with the newer tech and utilize the wireless capabilities in the latest MFDs. As I'm a big fan of Raymarine, I can speak to 2 ways I'd set the OP's boat up:
  • System with 1 MFD: Put an e127 (which has a built in GPS antenna and sounder module) at the upper helm, and connect the radar array and transducer.

    Route the wiring for both NMEA 0183 channels into a connection block for AIS/autopilot applications.

    Route a basic SeaTalk NG/NMEA 2000 backbone into the vessel for future installations.

    Use an iPad, connected via the built in Raymarine wifi, for the lower station.

  • System with 2 MFDs: Install an e125 at the upper station. Connect the radar to the upper unit. Put an e127 (which has the built in sounder module) at the lower helm, and connect the transducer to this unit. Connect the 2 MFDs with a Seatalk network cable, so the radar and sounder info can be shared between units. Designate the MFD you use most as the "master" unit, and install any charting chip there.

    At the master station, route the wiring for both NMEA 0183 channels into a connection block for AIS/autopilot applications.

    At the lower MFD, route a basic SeaTalk NG/NMEA 2000 backbone into the vessel for future installations.

    Use an iPad, connected via the built in Raymarine wifi, for route planning, anchor watch in the cabin, etc.

It's how I did my installation, and it works flawlessly.
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Old 05-21-2014, 01:19 PM   #26
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Thank you, Peter! I'll check this out. Multiple options and just the connect-the-dots level I needed. Much-appreciated.
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Old 05-21-2014, 04:49 PM   #27
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denloe1, it looks like you're mirroring your upper helm 4212 on a larger flat screen at the lower helm and controlling it with a remote. Is that right?

Yes

Some additional questions:



Can you get full functionality, including radar, sonar and cameras that way?



Yes it duplicates upper screen

Is there much noticeable lag on the remote?



Nope. Buttons work ok. Like tv.

Are you using any kind of NMEA network for other inputs or the proprietary Garmin network?



Yes I think my autopilot is fed from nmea backbone. GPS May come in that way. Need to chase all the wires.

Will any Garmin (or comparable) MFD with remote function and a VGA-out port work?



Yes it should.

Can I run any installed MFD charts on a setup like that?



Yes. Whatever is visible on the 4212 just repeats on VGA.

Sorry to have so many questions. I'll check with manufacturer's sites as well and I've found a few good explanations on line, but I'm very interested in real-world experiences.



Thanks all![/QUOTE]
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:35 AM   #28
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Prioritizing the various budget items, and looking at how quickly electronics become obsolete, I went the route of 1 MFD that I can move to the upper or lower helm as needed. True, it takes a minute. But I don't see myself switching helms very often.

Redundancy? The old chartplotter and radar still work great, and the various laptops, tablets and cell phones we carry all have navigation software installed and kept current.

With the price, and pace of change, for today's electronics, I just couldn't justify buying two. No doubt in 2-3 years I'll want a new one anyway.
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Old 05-24-2014, 09:25 AM   #29
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As far as electronics becoming obsolete especially Plotters or MFD's I can attest to this. When I was doing a serious re-fit of my Mainship 40SB in 2007-08 I decided that I would use Garmin. My initial order was a pair of 3210's and a 3206. Less than a year later the 4200 series plotters came out so I decided to leave the backup plotter the 3206 alone and replace the upper station with a 4210 and keep a 3210 below. Three months after doing this Garmin makes the 4200 series with NMEA2000. My model had no provisions for NMEA2000 only 0183, it stinks to be the 1st to purchase any initial release when it comes to marine navigation or communication gear. Well I decide I'll sell the previously purchased stuff to others in my marina. I order a pair of 4212's again leaving the 3206 in place. It was at that point that I built a starter NMEA2000 network. Then the 740 series came out and I decided to upgrade the 3206 to a 740s. Then the 6200-7200 series are released so one of the 4212's (at the helm) was replaced with a 6212. Now Garmin has the 8200 series MFD's and I'm building or re-fitting a new to me Gulfstar. So I decided I'm not getting all caught up in the constant upgrading of navigation MFD's and went with a new 741xs and a used 740s. That's what I'm going to use at the lower station because the upper helm is being removed. I went through something very similar with Garmins smaller 18" and 24" Radars (GMR20 thru GMR24HD) until I settled on a GMR18HD. Then Garmin came out with the VHF 200 but before that NMEA2000 radio was released I bought a pair of the only VHF NMEA2000 radios I was aware of the Lowrance LVR800. I think I went through 8 versions of everyone's VHF radio before I settled on a pair of the Garmin VHF 200 radios.
I won't even talk about AIS Class B transponders other than to say I am installing an AIS 600 on the Gulfstar.
Can everyone see how trying to keep everything updated quickly drains one's wallet?
I had a spare VHF 200 and purchased a used VHF 200 on E-Bay, they will be going in the Gulfstar.
If you allow yourself to get caught up in wanting the latest greatest you might end up never leaving the dock. Honestly the original pair of 3210's would be fine for my new re-do or makeover of the Gulfstar too bad I sold all the plotters and MFD's at serious discounts to my slip neighbors.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:39 AM   #30
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This all sounds really complex and cumbersome which leads to potential component failure. I have the Raymarine C97 chartplotter on my fly bridge and I have an iPad 3 in my lower helm. I have full functionality and control of the chartplotter via the free app I downloaded.

It is a simple and reliable system. I have used it in 200' visibility with the radar/chartplotter via the iPad. The other feature I really like is the ability to create routes on my iPad with the navionics app and than sync it to my chartplotter. Engage the autopilot and away I go.

I had a Garmin 5208 on my previous boat and likes it but the raymarine seems a little more robust and the HD radar is superior to the Garmin HD radar in my opinion.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:44 AM   #31
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I forgot to add that the raymarine chartplotter has an internal wifi and Bluetooth systems that connects to your iPad.

Pretty slick and I am sure it is obsolete now but it works well for us.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:45 AM   #32
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I'll be able to use an i-PAD or Smartphone OS with the 741xs. The 740s will be the back up and a 2nd display mainly for monitoring the AIS. There's nothing complicated about the system installed in my Mainship or the more basic system going into the Gulfstar. It's called redundancy something you will never have using one MFD or chartplotter. I don't trust Smartphone or IOS apps for boating. Using a Smartphone or iPAD as a stand alone platform might be okay for a dingy. This is just my personal opinion.
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Old 05-24-2014, 12:09 PM   #33
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I guess that's what I was trying to communicate they "MFD's and Chartplotter's" are all outdated as soon as you purchase them. Pick a system you are comfortable using. I recommend a system that the manufacture provides web-based software updates that are easy to update and now have at least one that converts the data via WiFi and you should be good to go....
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Old 05-24-2014, 12:35 PM   #34
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I suppose you have to ask yourself what are going to do with your boat? Blue water cruising? Day VFR cruising or scud running?

You can make anything incredibly redundant, but at what cost? I built a good system for what I use the boat for. I would dare say, most people won't leave the dock if the weather looks bad.
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Old 05-24-2014, 12:46 PM   #35
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I suppose you have to ask yourself what are going to do with your boat? Blue water cruising? Day VFR cruising or scud running?

You can make anything incredibly redundant, but at what cost? I built a good system for what I use the boat for. I would dare say, most people won't leave the dock if the weather looks bad.
Exactly...I know plenty of delivery capts now just travel with a pad/laptop and a smart phone for nav. They come prepared and with a backup and could care less what is on the boat.

As a rec guy...taking your time on nice days during daylight hours and travelling the ditch....wayyy different than offshore/bluewater cruising.
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Old 05-24-2014, 01:33 PM   #36
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I will be using the boat (a 1975 Gulfstar 36 MarkII) as an East coast ICW fuel efficient trawler. Portions of this area can only be transited on the outside. The Delaware Bay can be as nasty as the open ocean during bad weather depending on the wind and tidal conditions. We are planning to use the boat to cruise up the Hudson and Erie canal as well as the southern route taking us through the Dismal Swamp canal initially as far south as South Carolina. So redundancy be it navigation, communications, battery capacity, being able to produce fresh water, alternative charging, treat waste, Internet connectivity and having the safety components and systems for anchoring out or to have a fighting chance during an emergency are of importance to my Wife and I. We already own one vessel that is beautiful but isn't practical for this use a 1993 Mainship 40 Sedan Bridge. This vessel had a major re-fit in 2007-08. This owners (my) poor choice (8.1LO HO gas engines) at re-power makes her a great Dock Mary and very comfortable but not practical ($$$ for fuel) for extended cruising and being able to work remotely from the boat.
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Old 05-24-2014, 01:38 PM   #37
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I suppose you have to ask yourself what are going to do with your boat? Blue water cruising? Day VFR cruising or scud running?

You can make anything incredibly redundant, but at what cost? I built a good system for what I use the boat for. I would dare say, most people won't leave the dock if the weather looks bad.
I have less than $5k invested in the navigation systems I am installing in the Gulfstar. I came in at least $5k lower than my estimated cost for this portion of the vessels makeover.
I can justify the costs to myself perhaps others won't agree?
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Old 05-24-2014, 01:42 PM   #38
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hey...if you want to travel at night, in the fog and try to gamble with storms...pile the electronics on.

But as an East Coast ICW traveler...and retired or not on an oppressive schedule.... a GPS is hardly nesccesary let alone multiple anything. Having made numerous trups and deliveries along the AICW...it's rare unless you push to need much more than binocs and a chartbook....along with a compass and some basic skills.

I often run from my flybrigdge with nothing more than binocs and an old chartbook...no depth sounder even. If I think it will be an issue I go below till back into safer waters. If you have a reasonable draft and a slow speed..it really isn't all the difficult if you pay attention to weather (in the ICW a smart phone is often more useful than radar because it tells you to pull over BEFORE you get hit), tides and currents and read ahead on pubs/active capt.

Many make the same trip on tiny sailboats with nothing more than a handheld GPS and the hope to have fun...and they do...I have yet to hear about issues in that community compared to the people with all the gizmos who still screw it up.

Boaters usually fall into 2 categories...ones who buy what they need...and those who buy what they want. That's the main reason West Marine is still in business.

The first 2 trips from Florida to Jersey back to Florida and back again were with a pair of binocs, chartbook, a handheld for several legs and finally a $29 GPS puck into a laptop with free charts. NEVER did I feel inadequate to safely transit....and I'm lazy after decades of running pricey yachts with all the gear and commercial ops where the equipment was scientific positioning...not boating related necessarily (commercial survey quality GPS gear).

Buy what you think you need and then buy what you want...used or new it's still usually more than what you "actually need".
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Old 05-24-2014, 02:00 PM   #39
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Old 05-24-2014, 02:02 PM   #40
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We actually prefer traveling at night and at my own pace (slow). Most of the wreckless are sleeping. That's why I'm transferring my FLIR to the Gulfstar from the Mainship.
Bill
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