Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-20-2012, 10:35 AM   #21
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:*Come on guys. *All Mark wants to do is toot his own horn. *What's so wrong about that? *Although it could be a good idea to use the radio too.
*Dang right!* And a radio is so cumbersome/slow.*
__________________
Advertisement

markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #22
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
markpierce wrote:Ferry didn't follow the rules by not*going to*his starboard side of the channel and not acknowledging my signal.
*What "rules?"* The ferry skipper can do whatever he damn well pleases as long as it doesn't violate the Colregs.* I've not yet seen any double yellow lines down the middle of channels.* While there is an accepted practice of traffic flow through channels and passes, I don't believe there are any hard and fast rules (but I could be wrong).

The ferries here generally keep to one side of a channel or the other so as to pass other commercial vessels port to port.* But the "rule" is not about what side of a channel a vessel should be on, but how two vessels should meet and pass.* There have been plenty of instances where a ferry (or tug and barge or commercial landing craft or even a tanker) has been on the other side (the "wrong" side to your way of thinking) of the channel.* In the photo of the ferry I posted both of us were clear over to the north side of this particular channel.* The centerline of the channel was some distance toward the opposite shore on the far side of the ferry.

But the reality is as Dave described it.* You and your toy boat are at best non-existant to commercial vessels and at worst an annoyance.* There is one regulation in the Colregs that trumps all the "who should do what" reguations, and that is that no matter who is the stand-on vessel and who is the give-way vessel (nobody has the "right of way" in the Colregs), it is the* requirement for both vessels to do whatever is necessary to avoid a collision.

The ferry captain in your case was doing what he was doing for whatever reasons he was doing it.* If you think he* a) gave a rat's ass about what you were doing and* b) was going to change what he was doing to convenience you, think again.

From this and other posts I get the impression that you think everyone on the water-- commercial fishermen with their nets out, ferries, etc--- should be "playing by the rules" to suit you.* Sorry, it's the other way round in most cases.* You're the annoyance on the water, not them.

I suggest that if you haven't done so you obtain a copy of the Colregs and actually read it* You will quickly learn that nobody has the "right of way" over anybody, and that there is a pecking order as to who has the "authority" to be doing what they are doing and thus not be interfered with by anybody else.* As the operators of recreational power vessels, we are very close to the bottom of that list.

If you operate your boat under some assumption that commercial vessels will always--- or should always--- play by some set of rules like "don't leave a ferry slip and head toward you on 'your' side of the channel," I think your best recourse will be to stay well clear of any commercial vessels you see anywhere you see them because trust me, their "behavior" will conflict with what you think they should be doing as often as it will adhere to it.* And they will not be "breaking a rule" when they do it.*

And even if they are, it doesn't matter.* You can blow your silly little horn all day long if you want to, but in the end if you do nothing to avoid a collision, or if you act too late, you will be at least partially if not entirely in the wrong, particularly if the other vessel in question is a commercial one with a "reduced ability to maneuver."* Which is defined by him, by the way, not by you.





-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of February 2012 01:19:44 PM
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 12:11 PM   #23
Guru
 
Conrad's Avatar
 
City: Calgary
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,553
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

I deal with this situation every time I leave the marina in Campbell River. There is a ferry route within 5 minutes of the marina entrance, and I always keep an eye out for the ferry. My view is that I work around whatever the ferry is doing; not an issue for me, and much less stressful for all concerned.*

In the end, it is not who's right that matters, it's who's left.
Conrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 12:50 PM   #24
Veteran Member
 
weebobby's Avatar
 
City: Cochrane, Alberta
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Painters Cove
Vessel Model: 1997 Bayliner 5788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 88
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Ferries, at least in the PNW, and I believe most places , run on fairly well marked routes so it is not too hard to stay out of their way.

I keep well clear of everybody
weebobby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 01:17 PM   #25
Guru
 
koliver's Avatar
 
City: Saltspring Island
Country: BC, canada
Vessel Name: Retreat
Vessel Model: C&L 44
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,174
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Ferries, at least in the PNW, and I believe most places , run on fairly well marked routes so it is not too hard to stay out of their way.

I keep well clear of everybody


__________________

Bob


In fact, the chart shows the route of the ferries. If you watch, you will see that they keep strictly to the charted course, unless avoiding some obstacle. Yachts failing to keep a proper lookout are a frequent obstacle.

The Colregs are all about allocation of blame in the event of a collision. Nobody involved will ever get away scot free. There is always that problem of "keeping a proper lookout" which, if done correctly, will keep you out of trouble.
koliver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 03:10 PM   #26
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

With a few exceptions, the crews of the Washington State Ferries are generally courteous and boater friendly.* Every year they participate in many rescues and render assistance to endangered recreational boaters.*

But*expecting that nautical rules*should be applied*equally to both recreational boats and ferries isn't reasonable.* You're maneuvering a 30' - 50' boat which comparatively speaking "can stop and turn on a dime" and floats in 4 feet of water.* The ferry skipper is maneuvering a*380' vessel with a beam of 75',*2,700 gross tons and a 25+ foot*draft.**Common sense should dictate who should "yield" to who.

When*running in close proximity to a commercial vessel I'm watching their*course, speed*and anticipating their*manuevers.* As someone else pointed out, ferries in particular, follow designated routes*and seldom vary far from these scheduled routes.*

By far the most rude boaters I've run into are my fellow recreational boaters, who "drive" their boats, much like they do their car.* IMHO!!

Larry B


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Monday 20th of February 2012 05:51:02 PM
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 04:40 PM   #27
Guru
 
Sailor of Fortune's Avatar
 
City: Saint Augustine, Fl.
Country: Port of St Augustine ,FL
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,969
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

When in doubt (or not) a call to the commercial vessel on channel 13 will make everyone breathe easier. The commercial operator wants to know that your aware of his presence and his intended maneuver. Communication goes a long way.
Sailor of Fortune is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 04:57 PM   #28
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

The COLREGS are about 50 percent or so about a stand on and give way vessel..the lights/shapes/whistle signals*by these and what to do.

There is no reference to "recreational"

There are some references to size but for the most part a ferry and an 18 foor outboard are both power vessels.

Yes there are a few rules that say use comon sense...but they are grey areas and push comes to shove that ferry operator could be blamed for a lot if there's an incident (notice I said incident not collision).

A tug operator lost his license for 6 months and was heavily fined because he "scared" a few bass fishermen who were anchored in the channel blocking his approch to pass through a drawbridge.* He never hit them, just got close and even his saying "sorry" on the radio is what got him in the most trouble...the USCG heard it and used it against him.* Do I agree???* Heck no but for those of you that think that comms have rights over recs just because...you are wrong...hopefully never dead wrong.



-- Edited by psneeld on Monday 20th of February 2012 05:58:14 PM


-- Edited by psneeld on Monday 20th of February 2012 06:00:56 PM
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 05:25 PM   #29
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
psneeld wrote:
There is no reference to "recreational"
*This is true.* And in the eyes of the regulations, all vessels of a certain type are equal, just as how as soon as my floatplane touches the water I am bound by the Colregs just like a power vessel.

But like all laws or rules, there is what is written and there is common sense.* I think Larry spelled this out very effectively in his previous post.

Just as a prudent car or motorcyle driver doesn't challenge a semi just because the car or bike*driver has "the law" on his side, the driver of a small recreational vessel will be wise--- in my opinon--- to not challenge the operator of a commercial vessel, particularly a big one, just because the letter of the law is on his side.

While there will be plenty of people on this forum, I'm sure, who will vehemently*disagree with me, I take the attitude that someone working on the water for their livlihood--- a tug crew, a commercial fishing crew, a ferry crew, a ship's crew, the USCG, a pilot boat crew, you name it--- is there for reasons far more important in the overall scheme of things*than my wanting to have a nice afternoon drinking a glass of wine and eating*chips and dip*on a mooring in a pretty bay.

So my attitude, which is shared by my wife, is that any commercial vessel we come across in our cruises is the "stand on vessel" regardless of what the Colregs might say about the situation.

If a gillnet crew decides to put their net across a channel such that we're forced to deviate from our course and go clear around the end of their net, we'll do that happily and with a wave.* They're earning their living and they have to go where the fish are (or they hope they are).* If that inconveniences us a bit, well, I'm not out earning my living with my boat, I'm just screwing around with it for fun.

If a ferry captain decides that for whatever reason he needs to divert from the ferry route marked on the chart, assuming he's not the captain of the*Elwha or the*Costa Concordia I view him as doing his job.* I may not understand why he's going where he's going but that doesn't matter.* He's going there, so we view our responsibilty as maneuvering our own boat well clear.

If we should think that what the commercial vessel is doing might endanger us in some way--- a situation that has never arisen for us*in almost 30 years of boating in these waters--- Sailor of Fortune has the answer.* Call on the appropriate channel.

Continuing on and "waiting to see what will happen" is a fool's course, in my opinion.* We take the attitude that anything can happen, so we take steps to not be a factor in whatever a commercial crew chooses to do.* If that means adding a few minutes to our journey, so what?* If we were in that big of a hurry we shouldn't be out boating in a GB in the first place*:-)

And my wife and I enjoy watching the "pros" at work on the water, be it a seine boat*setting *for salmon, a tug and tow, a tanker manuevering its way into an anchorage off the refinery, and so on.* So we have no issue with taking a little more of our time so that*they will perhaps need a little less of theirs.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 20th of February 2012 06:38:38 PM
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #30
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Had a very similar situation today but the ferry was about a half mile away and turned toward the center of the strait.**** Intentions were clear and no communication or course change on my part*were necessary.

Marin, you don't seem to read my posts*very carefully.* For instance, I had said I presume everyone else on the water ignores the rules (unless otherwise demonstrated).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	vallejo ferry2.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	113.4 KB
ID:	10232  
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 07:45 PM   #31
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
markpierce wrote:
Marin, you don't seem to read my posts*very carefully.* For instance, I had said I presume everyone else on the water ignores the rules (unless otherwise demonstrated).
Don't know what you think the "rules" are.* If you think they are like traffic rules, then yes, everybody ignores them because there aren't any.

But it terms of the Colregs I think you'll find that the commercial folks, at least, are pretty mindful of what they spell out and they tend to adhere to them since their operating licenses and whatnot depend on that.

But since the Colregs bear little resemblence to what many or most recreational boaters think the "rules" should be, it can certainly seem to*the toy boat crowd that the big boys aren't playing fair.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 08:46 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
nwboater's Avatar
 
City: Whidbey Island WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: MV Kika
Vessel Model: Selene 47 Ocean Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 188
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

As others have pointed out, we just don't use horns here in the PNW -- probably because we*routinely share the*water*ways with (literally!) tons of*ferries and other commercial traffic, including oil tankers and container ships. Next time, try*connecting on VHF Ch 13. Chances are you'll get a faster reply than calling on*Ch 16. *
Attached Images
 
nwboater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 08:50 PM   #33
Guru
 
Giggitoni's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo, California
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Mahalo Moi
Vessel Model: 1986 Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,532
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.
Giggitoni is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 09:37 PM   #34
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Since the 9 -11 attacks and the US Cole incident, transportation rules and regulations*are taken much more seriously.* DOJ and Homeland Security, which includes the Coast Guard, provide security for all*forms of transportation.* We used to pass right under the stern of the anchored tankers near Anacortes.* But do that now days and you may have a CG inflatable chasing you down.**

About a*week ago a mentally challenged individual mumbled something about having a bomb and he was on a State Ferry at the terminal.**The boat was locked down, city police, State Patrol, bomb dogs, Coast Guard and FBI were at the terminal in minutes.* Two hours later the boat and terminal were*finally cleared for traffic.

For those of us recreational boaters who enjoy cruising*the "Salish Sea" (Juan De Fuca Straits, Puget Sound, and north) keep in mind that most of our boats*are included in the under the 20 meter exception*for operating in narrow channels (Rule 9)*and Vessel Traffic Systems (Rule 10).*

"A vessel of less than 20 meters in length*or a*sailing vessel*shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane."*and*same for*narrow channels.*

That covers most of our cruising area as*the main channels between Tacoma, Seattle, Everett, Bellingham, Victoria and Vancouver, BC*all contain VTS lanes and are radar and radio monitored by the Coast Guard.*

Most of our State ferries run in the 17 - 20 knot range. They used to operate a couple of small*foot ferries between Bremerton and Seattle that might have run a little faster, but I think they sold them.* Several private cruise ferries offer service on high speed hydrafoils, between Seattle*and Victoria.*

Larry B

*


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Monday 20th of February 2012 11:15:04 PM
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2012, 11:18 PM   #35
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
Marin wrote:
But since the Colregs bear little resemblence to what many or most recreational boaters think the "rules" should be, it can certainly seem to*the toy boat crowd that the big boys aren't playing fair.
*I had signalled (by horn) to*the ferry to communicate that I'd be turning to port, toward the center of the channel/strait,*where I had expected him to go instead of heading directly toward me on the extreme side of the channel.* If nothing else, the ferry maintained its course, and we passed starboard to starboard.* (These ferries draw not much more than a foot more than the Coot, and are several times faster although they maintain a 10-knot-or-so speed until entering San Pablo Bay.)


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 12:54:31 AM
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	vallejo ferry.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	165.5 KB
ID:	10234  
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:06 AM   #36
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.
Not really.* There is the Victoria Clipper, a big water-jet powered catamaran (I don't know if there's only one*Clipper*or more than one) that runs between Seattle and Victoria and has some other runs it makes from time to time.* I don't know how fast it goes but seeing it underway*from a distance it goes at a pretty good clip.

In the San Juans there are several small passenger ferries (50-60 feet maybe) that run on a semi-plane on a regular route.* The Washington State ferries are a lot faster than they appear to be.* Larry's estimate of 20 knots is probably pretty good.

And Vancouver, BC has several so-called "fast ferries" that carry passengers only back and forth from downtown Vancouver to West Vancouver and North Vancouver and other communities on the other side of the harbor.* But I don't know how fast they go.

The big BC ferries are larger than the Washington State ferries and seem to go considerably faster when they are in open water, but I don't know how fast is "faster."

First photo is the Victoria Clipper (or one of them).* Second photo is a new BC ferry shown leaving Europe on its delivery voyage to BC.* The front of the ferry has been closed up for the ocean voyage according to the blurb with the photo.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:12:14 AM
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	victoriaclipper01.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	190.8 KB
ID:	10235   Click image for larger version

Name:	coastal rennaissance.jpg
Views:	48
Size:	72.4 KB
ID:	10236  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:08 AM   #37
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,265
Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
nwboater wrote:
As others have pointed out, we just don't use horns here in the PNW -- probably because we*routinely share the*water*ways with (literally!) tons of*ferries and other commercial traffic, including oil tankers and container ships. Next time, try*connecting on VHF Ch 13. Chances are you'll get a faster reply than calling on*Ch 16. *
*No reason to communicate here.* I made a 40-degree course adjustment to avoid this ship in Carquinez Strait today between Benicia and Port Costa.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:09:11 AM
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	ship in cs btw mtnz pcosta.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	94.9 KB
ID:	10237  
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:21 AM   #38
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries?
*Quid pro quo.....* Do you folks in SFO Bay have VTS (Vessel Traffic Service)?* We do.* Actually we have three of them--- Seattle VTS, Victoria VTS, and Vancouver VTS.* They're like air traffic control for vessels.* Using radar and today perhaps GPS and AIS, they have controllers who monitor commercial vessel traffic and keep the vessels apprised of othe traffic in their vicinity and so forth.

While it's set up for commercial traffic there is no reason that a recreational boat can't use it.* We monitor it when we are in areas of high commercial traffic, and in poor visibility if we're going to be crossing a shipping lane or are entering*an area with*commerical traffic*we'll call up the relevant VTS and give them our name, vessel type, current position, speed and course and ask for any information regarding other vessels.* When we're clear of the shipping lane or traffic area we call them up and* tell them so.

We don't communicate with VTS when the visibility is good.* They don't need us giving them information they don't need although we often monitor the channel for the water we're in just to have a mental image of what's going on.* With all the islands you can't always*see visually or with radar what's coming your way so hearing the vessel and VTS communications can be handy.

If you have VTS in SFO Bay it could be a very useful thing to monitor, particularly in areas with a lot of commercial traffic.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 12:37 AM   #39
Guru
 
Conrad's Avatar
 
City: Calgary
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Blue Sky
Vessel Model: Nordic Tugs 42 Hull #001
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,553
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

Quote:
Marin wrote:Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.
Not really.* There is the Victoria Clipper, a big water-jet powered catamaran (I don't know if there's only one*Clipper*or more than one) that runs between Seattle and Victoria and has some other runs it makes from time to time.* I don't know how fast it goes but seeing it underway*from a distance it goes at a pretty good clip.

In the San Juans there are several small passenger ferries (50-60 feet maybe) that run on a semi-plane on a regular route.* The Washington State ferries are a lot faster than they appear to be.* Larry's estimate of 20 knots is probably pretty good.

And Vancouver, BC has several so-called "fast ferries" that carry passengers only back and forth from downtown Vancouver to West Vancouver and North Vancouver and other communities on the other side of the harbor.* But I don't know how fast they go.

The big BC ferries are larger than the Washington State ferries and seem to go considerably faster when they are in open water, but I don't know how fast is "faster."

First photo is the Victoria Clipper (or one of them).* Second photo is a new BC ferry shown leaving Europe on its delivery voyage to BC.* The front of the ferry has been closed up for the ocean voyage according to the blurb with the photo.

*



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:12:14 AM

*Just for fun I looked into the speeds of the BC ferries that Marin mentioned. The large ferries that cross Georgia Strait *on various routes generally are rated to run at 20.5 knots, while the largest (there are only four; one is shown in Marin's photo) run at 23 knots. The Sea Buses that run between Vancouver and North Vancouver run at 11.5 knots.
Conrad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2012, 03:56 AM   #40
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,531
RE: Not worthy of a couple of honks?

"I operate under the presumption boats don't follow the rules."


I operate under the presumption boats don't KNOW the rules.
__________________

FF is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Need a couple of ideas. Capn Chuck General Discussion 8 09-26-2010 09:15 PM
An object of my lust and a couple of other early season harbor neighbors dwhatty General Discussion 25 06-11-2010 09:55 PM
A couple of boat parade pics.... Baker Cruising and Events - Gulf Coast 4 12-15-2007 07:12 PM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012