NL Genset AutoStart using Xantrex AGS

[Arthurc]

Hi,
During longer periods at anchor its a pain to constantly look at the voltage and if the genset should be on. Has anyone installed the Xantrex AGS with a Northern Lights Genset?

I have a brand new NL 12KW generator and Xantrex 3012 Inverter/Charger with the control panel. My understanding is that this should be a pretty simple install and I would like to do it myself if possible but wanted to know if others have used the AGS and get their thoughts.

I also did some searching and read that starting the generator when there is an immediate load (rotary switch on Gen and hot water heater, heat pump breakers on) can cause damage to the voltage controller? Im not sure I fully understand that one but also wondering if a new NL wouldn't have protections built in to prevent an initial high load from hurting it.

Thoughts?
Arthur

 

[caltexflanc]

I am not sure about the Xantrex system, but take the following as some guidance to consider.



I had the Magnum AGS system, the upgraded version of which integrated with the Battery Monitor Kit and inverter. You could set it to trigger at a certain state of charge rather than voltage, which is a far superior method than a voltage trigger. Before we upgraded the old AGS triggered off voltage, and you'd get premature starts in the morning from running the microwave and/or coffee maker. That did put a big cold load on the generator as it also feeds the battery chargers and waterheater. The new one allowed a timed warm up and cool down cycle with some load shedding features. We had a big 20kw Onan that survived a couple years of the old system just fine, but we weren't doing it any favors.



We really enjoyed having the AGS; made things very convenient especially when we upgraded.

 

[Arthurc]

It looks like the Xantrex does support State of Charge as the default and also can turn on if it senses very high load on the inverter, not sure I would use that.
Curious if anyone has used the actual AGS unit?
AC

 

[ksanders]

I have one sitting on my boat but have been afraid to install it.

My worry is that the thing will start my generator while I am away and the seacock is closed.

Most control panels are really generator protection panels with a 2 wire start function. They generally replace any existing control and shutdown relays with the sensors tied directly to the panel. I have put in more than my share of them on land based systems.

The Xantrex unit is a different beast entirely. It wires into the existing preheat/shutdown bypass switch, and to the start switch, making installation easier. I just worry that I’ll leave it in automatic mode and walk away from the boat.

I think Northern Lights sells a 2 wire start kit. You could tie that into a SOC meter to start and stop based on voltage or battery capacity.

 

[Group9]

I have one sitting on my boat but have been afraid to install it.

My worry is that the thing will start my generator while I am away and the seacock is closed.

.

We have one installed on our Xantrex and Generator. I'm afraid to leave it engaged for the same reason.

 

[OldDan1943]

You will get used to looking at the voltage meter and the tank levels and bilge pump counter.
When I go back to my condo, I find myself "lost" because I have no idea what is going on with the condo systems. CHUCKLE

Per the bilge pump counters, if you are off the boat for a while, when you come back, looking at the bilge pump counters will either give you peace of mind that nothing leaked or give you something to do, where is the leak.

I do not have an auto start on my NL Gen. I dont feel the need for one because I have solar panels to keep the batteries charged when I am off the boat.

I have had an association with boats for over 20 years. (That to me is scary) When I leave the boat for an extended period of time, I have never found it necessary to close the hull valves. My rational, if I ask someone moves the boat to safe harbor, they may not know the location of all the hull valves. If you jump onboard to make your 'escape', remembering to open hull valves will slow your escape. Just remember to check your oil and water on the main engine, before starting. While the main engine is warming up, disconnect and stow the shore power cables, disconnect and stow the water hose and filter, finally untie the boat. After you complete your escape, you can find a quiet cove, and check the water and oil levels of the generator. Swap your name boards to make it difficult to identify you, either turn off the AIS or switch to receive only. LOL Oh and hoist the prirate flag.

 

[Arthurc]

Why not just wire in a manual interupt between the AGS and Genset? I get it’s a risk to leave on but proper shutdown of important systems is a simple checklist so having an easy override would reduce the risks.
That said the thought of closing seacocks has never occurred to me.

 

[Rossland]

Northern Lights sells a gen autostart module, about $250. I had considered installing one, but then I discovered the hard way that load must be removed from the generator before shutdown. $500 and a new regulator later, I read the caution in the owners manual. So the only way for an autostart to not ruin a regulator is once started, to keep the generator running until the batteries are fully charged, and the water is hot.
Another problem is that my Magnum inverter state of charge indicator can be off by as much as 20%. Clearly unacceptable if you are using it to start your generator.

So my solution is to install a Victron 700 series battery monitor. (about $200). If calibrated properly, these are accurate to within about 3%. They also contain a programable relay which I have connected to a bright red LED light. I have set the relay to turn the light on at 60% SOC to tell me that I should soon start the generator.

 

[stubones99]

If you wired the hot leads from the auto-start box through an A/C relay and then tied the relay to the A/C shore power lead, it would never start the genset when live power is coming aboard from dock power. That is a $20 fix for auto startup at the dock.

 

[twistedtree]

I've got a Xantrex AGS in use with their XW inverter and solar chargers. They all communicate via Xanbus using some sort of proprietary protocol. I would suggest checking carefully whether the AGS is compatible with your inverter. Assuming it is, you will then have two new challenges.


First, you need to feed the AGS a signal telling it that the generator is running. I don't think the NL generators have such a signal, so you will have to create it. I'm not using my AGS with an NL generator, but had the same issue and used a voltage sensing relay to detect when there is enough output voltage to indicate the gen is running.


Second, as you were warned, you need to stop and start the generator with no load. If the ONLY thing the generator powers is your inverter, then the inverter does this for you, not applying load until the generator input meets spec, and disconnecting for the cool down period before the gen shuts off. This is how my house works, but is not how boats typically work. Boats typically have a bunch of non-inverter loads that would have to be manually switched like hot water heaters, HVAC systems, battery chargers, etc. I don't recall whether the xantrex AGS has an output signal to switch the loads, but you will need that, or will need to create something external to do it.

 

[Ski in NC]

Seems like a complicated solution for a non-problem.

I've troubleshot some auto start systems and they were frustrating.

If you are concerned about your SOC status, that means you are on the boat at anchor and have plenty of time to keep track of stuff. Underway, non-issue, main is charging. Dockside, same, on shore power.

Keep it simple. Batts get low, crank up and load gennie.

 

[Arthurc]

So I must admit I didn’t realize how important it is to only start and stop a Genset with no load, I have certainly not been doing that...

Has anyone come up for a solution to this? I’m thinking about the family and unless I am the only one who ever starts and stops the Genset I dont think its likely everyone is going to remember to switch to shore power, start the Genset, switch back to gen, and then the reverse on stop. Hell I wont even remember that after a few beers...

AC

 

[Lepke]

I have a Magnum MS-PAE 48v system, one inverter provides 4800 watts. And they can be ganged up to 16kw. The AC shore or generator power (240AC) runs through the inverter. I have several house banks and switch thru them before an auto start that happens when there is still capacity left. I added a control that runs the generator at idle for a couple minutes before going to generating rpm and then taking the load. When I make water, about 2-3 days, then I run a generator and that usually meets my charging needs. My hot water tanks are usually off line. When the mains are running I have a 48v alternator that charges the house banks and rarely run a generator while cruising.

 

[OldDan1943]

This going to auto start stuff is not really necessary and you are inviting unnecessary problems.
Historically, there were systems to start the generator unloaded and then load the generator in an orderly fashion unloading it prior to shut down. I guess they were complicated and not that reliable.
Also there was a system to start and automatically sync a second generator if needed, assuming you had a second generator. This proved to be unreliable and unnecessarily complicated for pleasure boaters.
Plus a minor point against auto start, I always check the oil level and coolant tank level and a visual on the sea strainer before I start the generator.
In the US Navy, generators were synced manually. This was back in the 60s and early 70s. That included DDs that were built in the 40s and nuclear powered submarines built in the 50s, 60s.
I have no idea what is happening currently.

 

[Rossland]

Has anyone come up for a solution to this? I’m thinking about the family and unless I am the only one who ever starts and stops the Genset I dont think its likely everyone is going to remember to switch to shore power, start the Genset, switch back to gen, and then the reverse on stop. Hell I wont even remember that after a few beers...

AC

Dirona came up with a solution. https://mvdirona.com/2018/04/control-systems-on-dirona/
But my solution is much lower tech. I added a label to the generator control panel.

 

[OldDan1943]

Dirona came up with a solution. https://mvdirona.com/2018/04/control-systems-on-dirona/
But my solution is much lower tech. I added a label to the generator control panel.

The last I heard, boating is supposed fun. Did that change?

 

[caltexflanc]

Another problem is that my Magnum inverter state of charge indicator can be off by as much as 20%. Clearly unacceptable if you are using it to start your generator.

It sounds like you either didn't install a Magnum BMK or didn't set it up properly. I often used to double check mine with a hydrometer and it was always spot on.

Turning the AGS off is a simple closing checklist issue if you so desire. You can also set it to run for very limited time. If you don't maintain your plumbing and other systems, I can certainly understand the paranoia of having it run unattended.

 

[caltexflanc]

Plus a minor point against auto start, I always check the oil level and coolant tank level and a visual on the sea strainer before I start the generator.

So why wouldn't one do the same when it is idle between runs? I always did.

 

[OldDan1943]

So why wouldn't one do the same when it is idle between runs? I always did.

Because things change, water in the oil, slow leak in the coolant system.

 

[Simi 60]

So I must admit I didn’t realize how important it is to only start and stop a Genset with no load, I have certainly not been doing that...

Has anyone come up for a solution to this? I’m thinking about the family and unless I am the only one who ever starts and stops the Genset I dont think its likely everyone is going to remember to switch to shore power, start the Genset, switch back to gen, and then the reverse on stop. Hell I wont even remember that after a few beers...

AC

Basic but it works for me

 

[caltexflanc]

Because things change, water in the oil, slow leak in the coolant system.

Developed in a matter of at most a few hours while sitting idle? I was glad to take my chances. And I did have a heat exchanger go bad on me on the genset, but that doesn't affect the oil...

 

[ksanders]

In general I have no issue with auto start generators. I have spent literally a lifetime designing, and working on auto start generator installations. Auto start generators are required by law in many, actually most public facilities, and are widely used in literally millions of installations in the United states. The technology is proven to be reliable, over decades of time.

A auto start system is coupled with an Automatic Transfer Switch who’s job is to choose the power source to connect the loads to. Part of that function is to not connect the loads to the generator until the generator ready, and to switch over to utility power prior to shutting off the generator.

I never really thought about the potential for damage to a generator by stopping it under load before. Something bothers me about that concept though. All generators are designed to automatically shutdown based on a variety of fault conditions. In my lifetime in the industry I have NEVER heard of a generator voltage regulator failing upon a forced shutdown of the generator, and belive me I have troubleshot hundreds of generator failures that cause a shutdown. If that was the case in the industry I’m pretty sure I would have heard about it.

Perhaps the little NL units wth their NL only generator end have this issue. I know the larger units with the Marathon Magnaplus generator end and the SE-350 voltage regulator are not susceptible to this.

 

[Aquabelle]

No offense intended, but if you cannot be confident that you and your crew can reliably start and stop the genset unloaded, which is a basic and universal operating requirement and clearly stated in the NL Operating Manual, you should NOT be considering an auto-start system. Put the money and effort instead into a decent battery monitor/SOC meter and be disciplined about starting the gennie at 60%.

 

[caltexflanc]

No offense intended, but if you cannot be confident that you and your crew can reliably start and stop the genset unloaded, which is a basic and universal operating requirement and clearly stated in the NL Operating Manual, you should NOT be considering an auto-start system. Put the money and effort instead into a decent battery monitor/SOC meter and be disciplined about starting the gennie at 60%.

How is that any different from an AGS doing exactly the same thing?

 

[OldDan1943]

ksanders, I stand totally corrected. I had not considered the home autostart and hospital autostart and high-rise autostart generators and and and.
That leaves the question, is this technology applicable to small marine generators.
Personally, I would not want my boat's generator starting and running when I am not aboard. Signed, Paranoid OldDan.

 

[twistedtree]

If you want to pursue auto start, you might also consider a DynaGen controller. I think they are much better than the Xantrex/Schneider AGS, and can figure out themselves if the generator is running by looking at the AC frequency, or a speed sensor. I thought that under Schneider the Xantrex commercial product line (Conext) had been salvaged, but I have recently had a horrible service and support experience with Schneider and they are now on my don't-do-business-with-them list.

 

[Arthurc]

Is there a reason why two time delay relays wouldn’t work? They make relays that will delay ON for a configurable time, installing one to each leg of the Genset with the input signal also coming from the Genset should be able to delay the load for a few if not more than a few seconds? I might be missing something but that seems like an easy way to prevent damage to the generator, plus they are simple and easy to keep a spare.

I’ve easily found a bunch that handle 10a, and it looks like there are 30a ones too.
Here is one that waits 45 seconds before closing.
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...iling/time-delay-relay-ffchr12-rated-30a-120v

Using these yes you get a 45sec delay on your Genset power but does that really matter? Granted this does not work on shutdown but I’m less able to understand why that’s a problem, startup does make sense to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Arthurc]

No offense intended, but if you cannot be confident that you and your crew can reliably start and stop the genset unloaded, which is a basic and universal operating requirement and clearly stated in the NL Operating Manual, you should NOT be considering an auto-start system. Put the money and effort instead into a decent battery monitor/SOC meter and be disciplined about starting the gennie at 60%.

No offense taken, It’s not about my crew not being able to if I make a big deal about it, rather it’s about eliminating one set of complications and risks should it not be done correctly. When your crew consists of people with years of boating experience sure, no need, but when your crew is a 4 year old, a dog and a partner who is likely more concerned about what the 4 year old and dog are doing than the proper startup and shutdown of the Genset, I like to try and find ways to make their lives simplier while reducing my risk of a failure. As someone said earlier boating should be fun and one way to make it more enjoyable for her as a first time boater is to try and reduce the number of checklists she has to go through just to start the water heater....

 

[Rossland]

Is there a reason why two time delay relays wouldn’t work? They make relays that will delay ON for a configurable time, installing one to each leg of the Genset with the input signal also coming from the Genset should be able to delay the load for a few if not more than a few seconds? I might be missing something but that seems like an easy way to prevent damage to the generator, plus they are simple and easy to keep a spare.

I’ve easily found a bunch that handle 10a, and it looks like there are 30a ones too.
Here is one that waits 45 seconds before closing.
https://www.globalindustrial.com/p/...iling/time-delay-relay-ffchr12-rated-30a-120v

Using these yes you get a 45sec delay on your Genset power but does that really matter?

Thoughts?

It's not the delay on startup that is the problem. It is the need to remove load on shutdown. You need a device which will first remove the load, then shut down the engine. There are probably autostart modules that will do that, but I haven't looked, since I decided to start and stop my generator manually. I use a warning light triggered by a battery monitor to alert me that the gen should be started.

The decision to start a generator is pretty straightforward. Do the batteries need charging? Are you about to turn on a heavy load (e.g. air conditioning). The decision to turn off the gen is more complicated. Should the engine be allowed to cool down? Are the large power consumers no longer need to be powered up? Are the batteries sufficiently charged? Will you soon be starting the main engine for a days cruising so it is not necessary to use the gen to bring the batteries up to full charge? etc. etc. etc.

The decision process for a standby generator for a building, such as a hospital, is very easy. Start when the grid goes down. Stop when the grid comes back up. It is not so easy for a boat.

 

[Ski in NC]

I'm with Ksanders- I know many boat owners that start and stop their gennies with load attached. I tell them not to, but there does not seem to be any harm.

I worry more about things with electronic controls: AC's, fridges, whatever. During start and stop, Volts and Hertz are all over the place. Exciter current is who knows what.

In any case, why not start and stop unloaded? Easy peasy. Main breaker off when starting and stopping. Simple