Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-02-2013, 07:03 PM   #1
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
New battery setup

I am looking for feedback on my recent playtime in the engine room. I recently had a 6 volt battery fail and then this week my Stb 8D start/house battery fail. I have made changes to the distribution and would like some feedback if I am off base on my thinking. I intend to run the system in postion 2 on the A/B switch so that everything is run off the 8 new 6 volt batteries in the house bank. The old system was run in "Both" on the A/B switch. I replace the failed 8D with a 4D to save my jewels . Let me know if you see flaws in this.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Old boat electric.jpg
Views:	92
Size:	52.6 KB
ID:	23374   Click image for larger version

Name:	New boat electric.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	55.7 KB
ID:	23375  
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 09:17 PM   #2
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,787
Dave, suggest you move the cable that connects those items on position 1 to position 2 as you are running them always as a combined bank. Then connect the 4D battery from the Genset and port engine to position 1. In normal operation you can operate just on position 2, but in a pinch you can bring the 4D battery from position 1 online.

How are you charging these batteries now?

Marty
__________________

Bay Pelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2013, 09:45 PM   #3
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
Dave, suggest you move the cable that connects those items on position 1 to position 2 as you are running them always as a combined bank. Then connect the 4D battery from the Genset and port engine to position 1. In normal operation you can operate just on position 2, but in a pinch you can bring the 4D battery from position 1 online.

How are you charging these batteries now?

Marty
Your suggestion would tie the eight new 6 volt batteries bank to the three year old 8D battery. Is there a down side to battery performance with a setup like that. I thought I read that when you replace batteries in a bank they should all be the same age.
The three banks are charged with a 40+ amp multi-stage charger designed for three battery banks.
While cruising they are charged by a Promariner 2-4 Islocharger that combines the alternators and prioritzes charging to the start batteries.
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 03:25 AM   #4
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,787
You make a good point about combining the 8D with the new batteries, except you are already doing that via your battery switch being left in the "Both" position. This is the equivalent of a direct connection.

You may want to get some charging advice. You are charging all the batteries at the same time from one charger so that the charger senses the weakest. If you want to maintain different age batteries it may be necessary to charge them separately.

Marty
Bay Pelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 08:11 AM   #5
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Thanks Marty, I just read my charger manual and I had a big misconception on how it operated.

Simultaneous Three-Battery Bank Charging
Truecharge+ has three separate DC positive terminals to allow charging
of three separate batteries (or battery banks). The total current into the
batteries is a maximum of either 20 amperes or 40 amperes, depending on
the model, which is divided amongst the batteries according to their state
of discharge.

Note:
The three outputs are not independently voltage regulated so it

is important to avoid systems with mixed types of batteries.
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 09:41 AM   #6
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryedaze View Post
I am looking for feedback on my recent playtime in the engine room. I recently had a 6 volt battery fail and then this week my Stb 8D start/house battery fail. I have made changes to the distribution and would like some feedback if I am off base on my thinking. I intend to run the system in postion 2 on the A/B switch so that everything is run off the 8 new 6 volt batteries in the house bank. The old system was run in "Both" on the A/B switch. I replace the failed 8D with a 4D to save my jewels . Let me know if you see flaws in this.

Good start

Now, make it better...

1. Install an ACR jumping around the a/b switch. (this will allow the engine to charge the house bank)

2. Make the a/b switch either an on/off switch, and tie the dc panel to the house bank, or replace the a/b switch with an a/b/combine switch. (this will allow you to combine the banks in an emergency in case a bank fails)

3. install a on/off switch between the starboard and port banks. (this will allow emergency combining of banks in case a bank fails)
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 10:09 AM   #7
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Good start

Now, make it better...

1. Install an ACR jumping around the a/b switch. (this will allow the engine to charge the house bank)
I have a Promariner Isocharger that combines the output of both alternators and feeds all three banks based on priority.
2. Make the a/b switch either an on/off switch, and tie the dc panel to the house bank, or replace the a/b switch with an a/b/combine switch. (this will allow you to combine the banks in an emergency in case a bank fails)
The A/B switch is actually A/B/Both/Off
3. install a on/off switch between the starboard and port banks. (this will allow emergency combining of banks in case a bank fails)
Good suggestion, I have a heavy set of jumpers for emergencies
Thanks for the feedback
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 01:29 PM   #8
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
At the risk of being shot down, but since I like to TRY to help, I just threw this together. Y'all check my work and see if this is right. Certainly, minus a few buss bars and more details. See if this helps.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Wiring Idea.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	35.9 KB
ID:	23384  
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 04:11 PM   #9
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
At the risk of being shot down, but since I like to TRY to help, I just threw this together. Y'all check my work and see if this is right. Certainly, minus a few buss bars and more details. See if this helps.
Thanks Tom, it looks like my lack of detail probably didnt help my cause here. I like the tie idea between the 4D and the 8D if needed. Here is a better picture of whay I have.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	boat batts.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	93.1 KB
ID:	23389  
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 06:32 PM   #10
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
I don't trust the ISO Charger doing so much and having so many things attached to it. It makes it too much of a single-point-of-failure. If you lose it, you lose everything. But that's just me.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2013, 08:18 PM   #11
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom.B View Post
I don't trust the ISO Charger doing so much and having so many things attached to it. It makes it too much of a single-point-of-failure. If you lose it, you lose everything. But that's just me.
Good point Tom. My back up plan is the fact that the engines have battery isolation switches right next to the Iso charger and I can pull the leads and return the configuration to allow the alternators to supply directly to the batteries.
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 08:30 AM   #12
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
I understand, but in a failure situation, you have opened yourself up to not only lose battery power, but one or both alternators. You also need to be careful with 1/2/off/all switches. There are a lot of people that don't use them (me included). Another SPOF and opens you up for a mistake by leaving it in the wrong position.

Here is the thread from my recent charging system upgrade:

Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

Hope it helps a little. I looked for my finalized wiring diagram, but can't seem to put my hands on it right now. Hmmm... I'll keep looking.
__________________
2000 Navigator 4200 Classic
(NOT a trawler)
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 09:44 AM   #13
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryedaze View Post
Thanks Tom, it looks like my lack of detail probably didnt help my cause here. I like the tie idea between the 4D and the 8D if needed. Here is a better picture of whay I have.

Dave, For allot of reasons I'd make long term plans to eliminate the the promariner combiner from your design.

First, as others have indicated it creates a single point of failure in your system. We want to avoid single points of failure at all cost.

Second, the physical layout of that unit, is in my opinion a safety hazard in itself. The reason is that the studs sticking out are not physically isolated from each other. I'm not a fan of that because of the risk of short circuit. Almost every other piece of equipment I've seen and worked on has physical barriers between the studs.

There are other solutions on the market that can solve the charging challenges of multiple sources and multiple battery banks without creating a single point of failure, or a risk of short circuit.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 11:45 AM   #14
Guru
 
fryedaze's Avatar
 
City: Solomons Island Md
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Fryedaze
Vessel Model: MC 42 (Overseas Ltd) Monk 42
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Dave, For allot of reasons I'd make long term plans to eliminate the the promariner combiner from your design.

First, as others have indicated it creates a single point of failure in your system. We want to avoid single points of failure at all cost.

Second, the physical layout of that unit, is in my opinion a safety hazard in itself. The reason is that the studs sticking out are not physically isolated from each other. I'm not a fan of that because of the risk of short circuit. Almost every other piece of equipment I've seen and worked on has physical barriers between the studs.

There are other solutions on the market that can solve the charging challenges of multiple sources and multiple battery banks without creating a single point of failure, or a risk of short circuit.
Kevin, I don't share your concern over potential short circuits. With the exception of one small gage ground/neg lead in the lower corner of the unit, everything in the box is positive terminals. The unit has a clear cover that eliminates the exposed terminal risk. Every terminal is covered with a boot that was provided by the manufacturer.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1004131153.jpg
Views:	53
Size:	72.0 KB
ID:	23408  
__________________
Dave Frye
Fryedaze, MC 42 (Monk 42') 1989 Overseas Co
http://mvfryedaze.blogspot.com/
fryedaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2013, 12:18 PM   #15
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by fryedaze View Post
Kevin, I don't share your concern over potential short circuits. With the exception of one small gage ground/neg lead in the lower corner of the unit, everything in the box is positive terminals. The unit has a clear cover that eliminates the exposed terminal risk. Every terminal is covered with a boot that was provided by the manufacturer.
well, I feel a little better about the installation now, with the manufacturer provided boots. They saw the risk and took steps to mitigate it, very good.

Sometimes a design comes down to different ways to solve the same challenge.

I am a huge fan of individual ACR's. I remember thinking how much I liked the idea when they first came out, and much of the boating community was against them.

I am also a big fan of providing a manual bypass to each ACR with a on/off switch in case the unit fails.

I am also a big fan of individual on off switches, as opposed to a/b/combine/off switches. But thats just my simplistic thinking.

Anyway, with your providing a clear photo of the unit, and thinking about the boots the manufacturer provided, you solved one of my major concerns.
__________________

__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012