Navigation Basics

[Rambler]

I grew up on charts (Navy parents), and they're great for planning and spot checking things. We use post-its too. Helps with note making for things like anchorages and the like. The web based "know it all" sites are good, but it's my opinion that counts, unless it's the wifes opinion, and then that's the one that counts . The cool thing is when you get a new chart, just more the post-its.

Hadn't thought about the big "You are Here, and going this way" arrow though. Could be handy. Maybe get a brasss one, or a small brass boat that could double as a chart weight. I get royalties for that idea if someone goes to production with it.

Electronics are cool too, so don't get me wrong. It's kind of reassuring to see your location on the e-chart, but that had better mesh up with what you're seeing on the water and in the water. And that's the thing I remember being taught at an early age, to read the water. Depth sounders are good, but only below the boat, not 100 feet off the bow, in the bend in the river, etc.

 

[psneeld]

That would have been at Opa Locka FL. Eastern Airlines or American 727 I believe. Came out of the clouds at night declared they had a visual of Miami 9 and in fact they were looking at Opa Locka 9. They landed without any problems but when they taxied about a bit they couldn't find a real terminal. The passengers were off loaded to a bus and taken to MIA.

It's happened way more than once and not just at just Opa Locka...I was stationed there in 1980-1983 when it was either a 727 or 707 landed and was too heavy to take back off so the pax were bused down to Miami Int. That the incident you were referring to?

I once was steered by my ILS system to Miami, Int instead of Opa Locka because the glideslope and course indicator cannon plugs were reversed...fortunately it was visual so we only went a little of the way off course just as traffic control started screaming WTF!!!

 

[Pau Hana]

how about using one of these to be even quicker....

Indeed! I got so used to swinging dividers that it's easier to whip out the info that way...

 

[Chuck Gould]

I can do all of those things, but would only resort to using paper charts if the GPS plotter went down. When we started boating, a vessel had the "typical electronics" if it came equipped with a rotary depth sounder and a VHF radio.

That said, I do have a full inventory of charts covering our normal cruising grounds and the appropriate chart is always open on the chart table. The dividers, parallel rules, and pencil remain within easy reach- and I still remember how to use all three.

As a coastal navigator, I have never bothered to learn to use a sextant.

 

[FlyWright]

I once was steered by my ILS system to Miami, Int instead of Opa Locka because the glideslope and course indicator cannon plugs were reversed...fortunately it was visual so we only went a little of the way off course just as traffic control started screaming WTF!!!

Cannon plugs reversed? Could never happen. They're different receivers on different bands. Localizers are VHF and the GS is a co-channeled UHF signal.

More likely that the wrong localizer frequency was tuned by the pilot.

We saw deviations like this on a regular basis in San Diego. Montgomery Field (MYF) is a short runway general aviation airport that is hard to see sometimes and has an ILS to Rwy 28R. Four NM north is NAS Miramar (NKX) (now Marine) with long Rwys 24L and R. Quite frequently pilots would break out of the clouds several miles out on final and see NKX before seeing MYF and drift to the right toward the final to NKX.

 

[Marin]

This was related to me by Carey a number of years ago. I believe he was out in his dinghy off Sucia Island in the San Juans when he was flagged down by a fellow in some sort of cabin cruiser. Carey went over and the guy wanted to know if Carey could show him on his chart where he was. Carey said sure, and the guy got his chart out.

It was a very old, very worn road map of Washington, one of those folding gas station ones. Carey gave him a somewhat tactful talk about charts and why one should have them. The fellow said that's okay, he'd been using this road map for years now but he just wasn't sure where he was at the moment.

So Carey told him and left him to his own devices.

That's the thing with boats. In the US, at any rate, all you need to take up boating is the money to buy one. After that it's up to you. Lots of candidates out there for the Darwin Award.

 

[Marin]

how about using one of these [Jeppesen CR-3 aviation calculator] to be even quicker....

We have a couple of those of course, but they (don't remember who" they" are) make one specifically for boating. We bought one right after getting the GB along with all the other stuff for manual plotting and calculating.

One thing we have which can be helpful even using electronic navigation is one of these (photo). It's an electronic distance measurer. You enter the scale of the chart, zero the readout, and then roll the tip along the route. The display shows the distance from the start point as you roll along.

Even if we don't actually plot our courses on a chart this thing is real handy for rolling along your intended route to determine the distance and thus fuel burn and whatever else you want to know relating to the travel distance. Comes in a nice case, uses one or two AAA batteries IIRC.

You can do the same thing by walking a set of dividers, and we do that too, sometimes. But this thing is faster (once you learn how to enter the data it needs) and you can measure along a curve more accurately.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I think the Maptech software has a mileage overlay ring feature. We have used this option on approaches to bridges to inform the bridge tender as to our ETA for an opening. Of course it's not as good as your device Mr. Marin, for a circuitous distance estimation. Yup, VERY occasionally use dividers as well.

 

[markpierce]

Navigating a menu:

 

[psneeld]

Cannon plugs reversed? Could never happen. They're different receivers on different bands. Localizers are VHF and the GS is a co-channeled UHF signal.

More likely that the wrong localizer frequency was tuned by the pilot.

We saw deviations like this on a regular basis in San Diego. Montgomery Field (MYF) is a short runway general aviation airport that is hard to see sometimes and has an ILS to Rwy 28R. Four NM north is NAS Miramar (NKX) (now Marine) with long Rwys 24L and R. Quite frequently pilots would break out of the clouds several miles out on final and see NKX before seeing MYF and drift to the right toward the final to NKX.

Sorry...but it's true...HH52A circa 1982. The avionics tech showed me.

After that...at least on HH52A avionics different cannon plugs were used so they couldn't be reversed.


I remember that day as if it were yesterday. The copilot and I were scratching our heads for more than a few minutes.

 

[Codger2]

but this thing is faster (once you learn how to enter the data it needs) and you can measure along a curve more accurately.

who makes it and where can we find one?

 

[markpierce]

... the guy wanted to know if Carey could show him on his chart where he was. Carey said sure, and the guy got his chart out.

It was a very old, very worn road map of Washington, one of those folding gas station ones. Carey gave him a somewhat tactful talk about charts and why one should have them. The fellow said that's okay, he'd been using this road map for years now but he just wasn't sure where he was at the moment.

So Carey told him and left him to his own devices.
... Lots of candidates out there for the Darwin Award.

Captain Cook would have "killed" to have such a map.

 

[JD]

It's happened way more than once and not just at just Opa Locka...I was stationed there in 1980-1983 when it was either a 727 or 707 landed and was too heavy to take back off so the pax were bused down to Miami Int. That the incident you were referring to?

I once was steered by my ILS system to Miami, Int instead of Opa Locka because the glideslope and course indicator cannon plugs were reversed...fortunately it was visual so we only went a little of the way off course just as traffic control started screaming WTF!!!

Yep that was it. A 727. The news media (for whatever they are worth) said that the pilots were on suspension once the plane landed and were not allowed to fly it out period. They didn't get the plane out until they had a new crew come up to ferry it from MIA.

 

[FlyWright]

Sorry...but it's true...HH52A circa 1982. The avionics tech showed me.

After that...at least on HH52A avionics different cannon plugs were used so they couldn't be reversed.


I remember that day as if it were yesterday. The copilot and I were scratching our heads for more than a few minutes.

Then you've discovered a way to make a VHF receiver receive a UHF signal and somehow have it mysteriously guide you to another airport. Sounds like something out of the old Die Hard movies.

I stand by my claim that this is impossible and that a plausible explanation is pilot error. I'd love to hear your explanation for how this could be possible.

There have been rare cases in the past when a localizer was placed in quadrature phasing (sidebands dummy-loaded, radiating carrier signal only) and the localizer will remain centered regardless of your position, as long as you are within the service volume. This is an equipment configuration used by ground maintenance personnel to calibrate and maintain the electronic equipment. The rules state that the identification (morse code) must be turned off before placing a facility in this configuration.

A GS facility overseas was left in this configuration which contributed to an accident years ago. It would not, however guide you to another airport. The course needle would simply remain centered as long as you remained within the localizer service volume.

 

[Rambler]

Navigating a menu:

Dang Mark, you clean up nicely.

 

[Marin]

who makes it and where can we find one?

I bought ours at Captain's Nautical Supplies in Seattle. I lifted the photo from their on-line catalog so they still carry it. The full product name is Scalex Map Wheel Electronic Distance Measurer. The url for the product on the Captain's site is Scalex Map Wheel Electronic Distance Measurer

But I would think you could find the product at a variety of sources.

interesting factoid about Captain's--- they've been in business since 1897. Different people in the store now, though.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. Rambler. I agree. Mr. Mark looks QUITE extinguished.

 

[ARoss]

Vinny, the "wrong airport" incident you mentioned in FL wasn't the one I recalled, but a quick Google shows this isn't as rare as you might think. The one I remembered was in the Dakotas.
Wrong Way Landings By Commercial Airliners

 

[Marin]

Some years ago Aeroflot had a daily (I think) flight to Seattle-Tacoma. Don't know if they still do, but the fight came in after dark.

On one particular flight the crew made an ILS approach (so they said) to Highway 99, the busy four-lane road which is the main drag through the airport area and runs parallel to but a mile or more to the east of the runways at Seatac. Realizing their mistake they went around..... and did it again.

Third time's a charm and they got it on the ground on the correct stretch of pavement. As I recall, significant drinking on the flight deck was the root cause of the error. The ILS itself was fine.

 

[Rambler]

Greetings,
Mr. Rambler. I agree. Mr. Mark looks QUITE extinguished.

Extinguished carries so many connotations. Don't you think?

 

[Rambler]

Back in my military days I was a Site Development Spec and did drafting, among other sordid activities, which let to having access to a state of the art "map wheel" for plan measuring. Not unlike these here:

So what you got there Marin is a more high tech version of the same thing. I'm surprised that it's still wheel driven and not lazer guided or some other method of measuring.

 

[Marin]

I'm surprised that it's still wheel driven and not lazer guided or some other method of measuring.

I don't know how a laser would work in this case. It would probably be a lot more expensive if nothing else.

The little tip wheel in the device we have is perforated or dimpled so as it rolls a sensor in the end of the instrument simply counts the perforations/dimples as they go by. How a laser would calculate distance on a chart just by passing the beam across its surface I don't know.

 

[FlyWright]

American Airlines (I believe that is the right carrier, apologies to American if I'm wrong) landed on the west taxiway at SeaTac thinking it was a runway, long before the new west runway was commissioned. When the new runway was under construction, prominent notices were published in the approach book to alert pilots to the risk of landing on the closed pavement.

I had the privilege to commission the new radar on the west side of the SEA airport and be the first pilot to put landing wheel marks on each end of the west runway while I commissioned the 2 ILSs there. Got to do the same in Salt Lake City when their new west runway and ILSs were commissioned by me.

The pressure to land on centerline is pretty high when you're the first one doing it and can't deny the evidence left behind!! The SEA landings were on celterline each end, I was off about a foot or 2 on one SLC landing. Close, but no cigar!

 

[ancora]

If you guys think you can navigate, try running a Predicted Log contest. We (my wife pilots the boat) ran a 13 nm race in July and took first place with a total net error of seventeen seconds. I use both computer and paper to plot the race. If both results don't jibe I've made a mistake somewhere.

 

[ARoss]

I don't know how a laser would work in this case. It would probably be a lot more expensive if nothing else.

The little tip wheel in the device we have is perforated or dimpled so as it rolls a sensor in the end of the instrument simply counts the perforations/dimples as they go by. How a laser would calculate distance on a chart just by passing the beam across its surface I don't know.

I don't know if such an animal exists, but since my mouse has a laser that seems to track linearly (?) across my mouse pad, I'd guess some techie could figure out how to make a similar device that'd calibrate to the scale of any chart, and measure accordingly.

 

[CPseudonym]

Map wheels are also known as plan wheels and often used in construction while doing "take offs" from plans for the purpose of estimating a job. They are pretty accurate devices both digital and analog. CAD technology has taken a lot of the fun and tedium out of estimating.

 

[Northern Spy]

If you guys think you can navigate, try running a Predicted Log contest. We (my wife pilots the boat) ran a 13 nm race in July and took first place with a total net error of seventeen seconds. I use both computer and paper to plot the race. If both results don't jibe I've made a mistake somewhere.

I was an observer on Bremerton Heavy Weather Race a few times (pre electronic navigation). Thought about setting one up for our yacht club.

 

[Captain K]

You friggin' guys are bloody great! Thanks for the responses brothers. I think the point has been made. We all need to make sure we can find out where we are when the magic black boxes quit. Good on you all! Thanks again amigos!

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Map wheels are also known as plan wheels and often used in construction while doing "take offs" from plans for the purpose of estimating a job. They are pretty accurate devices both digital and analog. CAD technology has taken a lot of the fun and tedium out of estimating.

Matt borrowed a digital one from his work and we couldn't figure out how to program it to the scale! Maybe if we'd had instructions it would have helped! seems like a pretty handy tool.

 

[Marin]

Matt borrowed a digital one from his work and we couldn't figure out how to program it to the scale! Maybe if we'd had instructions it would have helped! seems like a pretty handy tool.

If it's the same kind we have, yes, you need the instructions to learn how to enter the data it needs. It's not particularly intuitive. We don't use ours that often so every time we do we have to refer to the instructions. If one used it on a regular basis they'd learn it easy enough.