Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-04-2016, 12:45 PM   #41
Guru
 
River Cruiser's Avatar
 
City: UMR MM283
Country: US
Vessel Name: Northern Lights II
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,228
I have the H-50 helm pumps and the K-18 cylinder, the ci of the cylinder is 8.3 if I remember correctly if this helps.


Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Ron on Northern Lights II
I don't like making plans for the day because the word "premeditated" gets thrown around in the courtroom.
River Cruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2016, 01:04 PM   #42
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,378
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
It's all about the ram, or rams if there are two depending on configuration. You have to move that fluid in the ram to move the rudder(s).

Keith
Thanks, I think, based on photos, my ram is a K-22 or K-27, which specs out at 13.3 cu. in. Mapped to Raymarine gear, that requires at least a Type 1 pump (rated up to 14 cu. in.), or maybe a Type 2 at 14-21 cu. in.

In other words, triple the price of an EVO-100 (or more.)

So, I'm back to ComNav, which seems like a fine unit except I don't see any NMEA out options. If I'm going to spend $$ on a heading sensor, it would be nice to have that on my N2K bus, or at the very least, feed it over NMEA 0183 to my chartplotter.

The joys of boat ownership.

PS: Thanks to Ron, too, even though I think my cylinder is a different model. Plus, I just love your signature line. I use it all the time. I was leaning toward one of the Bayliners myself before this Prairie came up.
__________________

CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 09:15 AM   #43
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
Thanks, I think, based on photos, my ram is a K-22 or K-27, which specs out at 13.3 cu. in. Mapped to Raymarine gear, that requires at least a Type 1 pump (rated up to 14 cu. in.), or maybe a Type 2 at 14-21 cu. in.

In other words, triple the price of an EVO-100 (or more.)
Let me see if I have this right. The smallest Raymarine pump is a Type 0.5 (3.1 to 9 ci) with a street price of about $550. The Type 1 (4.9 to 14 ci) has a street price of $650. But it corresponds to the ACU-200 over the ACU-100, which have street prices of $700 over $350. So a Type 1 / ACU-200 combo is $450 more than the entry level combination. Not sure where the "triple" is coming from.

You don't need to use the Raymarine pump, but if you want a hydraulic autopilot you are going to have to use something equivalent no matter which AP manufacturer you choose. Yes, it's a bummer that the higher "capacity" control units cost more money when the only significant difference is ampacity of the pump circuit, but that's one of the ways the manufacturers segment their markets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
So, I'm back to ComNav, which seems like a fine unit except I don't see any NMEA out options. If I'm going to spend $$ on a heading sensor, it would be nice to have that on my N2K bus, or at the very least, feed it over NMEA 0183 to my chartplotter.
I didn't really look at ComNav, but I'm pretty sure their APs are also NMEA 2000 and should integrate with other NMEA 2000 components like your chartplotter. NMEA 2000 doesn't have an "out" like NMEA 0183, but if you want to network NMEA 0183 devices I think you are better off adding an Actisense NGW-1 (true, it costs $170ish) and getting total control of the sentences.
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 09:30 AM   #44
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
If trying to stay economical...not sure what heading sensor you want to connect to a chartplotter.

The typical Fluxgate compass is not a precision instrument from my point of view. To use it as a compass backup is only fine if you calibrate it accurately and ensure it doesnt get altered.

Certainly would never use it over GPS heading.

There are better heading sensors...but jump correspondingly in cost.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 11:10 AM   #45
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
If trying to stay economical...not sure what heading sensor you want to connect to a chartplotter.

The typical Fluxgate compass is not a precision instrument from my point of view. To use it as a compass backup is only fine if you calibrate it accurately and ensure it doesnt get altered.

Certainly would never use it over GPS heading.

There are better heading sensors...but jump correspondingly in cost.
Agreed. The information from the EVO sensor is interesting to the AP - rate of turn and 3-axis positioning - but it's not going to be useful to the plotter. What might be useful is initiating a course from the plotter and having the AP receive steering directions.

The ACU, however, can make use of GPS data (if present) and, more important, rudder position data (again, if present). Rudder angle display on the AP control head (if separate gauge not fitted) is very useful.


Keith
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 02:36 PM   #46
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,378
Great discussion, thanks!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
Not sure where the "triple" is coming from.
In rough numbers, the price went from 1.5 BU to 4 BU, or about 2.6 times more, for a complete kit. I rounded up.

[QUOTE=refugio;421323]Yes, it's a bummer that the higher "capacity" control units cost more money when the only significant difference is ampacity of the pump circuit, but that's one of the ways the manufacturers segment their markets.[\QUOTE]

Agree on both counts; (1) it is a bummer and (2) these seem to be priced based on what the market will bear, rather than any consideration of cost to produce. I've never bought anything from Raymarine. I've used lots of their equipment, and it's good stuff. I always consider them, but when it comes time to buy, so far I've always ended up with something as good or better, for a lot less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
I didn't really look at ComNav, but I'm pretty sure their APs are also NMEA 2000 and should integrate with other NMEA 2000 components like your chartplotter.
The manual was pretty clear that it's only NMEA 0183. I thought that was odd too. My MFD has an 0183 "out" that I'm not using anyway. But N2K would make it a whole lot easier to swap things around if necessary.

To the rest who pointed out that there's really not much the MFD needs from the fluxgate, I see your point. I know nothing about their latency or accuracy. I know the GPS heading is always a second or two behind, and thought maybe the fluxgate would be better. I wasn't thinking about the rate of turn and multiple axes.

So, it's looking more and more like a ComNav unit in my future.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 02:41 PM   #47
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
The EV-200 Power (P70R) with Type 1 pump is $2,400 online. You literally would need nothing more except a circuit breaker.


Keith
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 03:18 PM   #48
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,202
I actually think there is great value in a heading sensor fed into a chart plotter.

1) It will allow the plotter (most of them) to display both heading and GOG. A GPS will only ever display COG. The difference of course is set and drift from environmental factors. But if you frequent areas with significant current, being able to see both helps you better understand what's going on, and not wonder why you need to steer for the rocks in order to safely pass clear of them...

2) A GPS will only give you COG when you are moving, and it's accuracy is poorer the slower you are going. In contrast, a heading sensor can always show your heading whether you are moving or not. Without a heading sensor, when your boat is not moving your boat icon (if you are in north up display) or the whole chart (if you are in heads up display) will be spinning all over the place. It's not dangerous, but annoying, and makes things like route plotting impossible if you normally have the display in heads up mode.

3) As previously mentioned, a heading sensor will provide a much more stable and up to date heading than a GPS.

4) Another place where an at-rest heading comes into play is with an anchor alarm. Most plotters have them, and several are available for ipads etc.. I really like being able to see where the boat is within my swing circle, as well as what direction it's pointing, especially as it relates to the wind direction.

5) Oh, and there is another use. If you have a wind sensor, with a good heading sensor you can then display ground wind which, on a trawler, I think is more relevant than apparent wind.

But there is no reason why you can't connect the AP heading sensor to both the AP and the plotter. Unless it's a really old heading sensor that uses AT10 or some other sine/cosine output, it will emit heading in 0183 or N2K, and can be wired to both the AP and plotter. Worst case, an 0183 to N2K converter may be needed.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 03:47 PM   #49
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
I agree a digital heading sensor is nice for many reasons.

Just the cheapest ones may or may not hook up and work so nicely.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 03:58 PM   #50
Senior Member
 
City: Baltimore, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Starshine
Vessel Model: 1989 Bayliner 3288
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 157
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
The EV-200 Power (P70R) with Type 1 pump is $2,400 online. You literally would need nothing more except a circuit breaker.


Keith

Raymarine has a $300 rebate on the EV-200 system through the end of April.
johnrupp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 05:10 PM   #51
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrupp View Post
Raymarine has a $300 rebate on the EV-200 system through the end of April.
Yes, I forgot - I got $300 rebate on mine too. I don't see a lower cost option being possible.


Keith
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2016, 05:22 PM   #52
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Fair enough on heading stabilizing plotter in Course Up. I get apparent (and true) wind from my Airmar 200WX and hadn't considered that a plotter might do those calcs - is that common?


Keith
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 07:10 AM   #53
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
All this high amp hyd/electric stuff is great fun, BUT


Do you carry an easy to mount emergency tiller in any boat that does NOT have a mechanical steering?

Why not?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 07:47 AM   #54
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,378
FF makes a good point. Normally, I'd say my twin throttles and clutches are my backup steering. But I admit to being a little nervous about cutting into a 35-year-old hydraulic system to add a pump.

You guys are killing me. I thought I had this figured out. But I have to admit the Raymarine EVO-200 looks like a nice package, and "only" a few hundred ($700-800 to be exact) more than the ComNav, after rebate.

I like the N2K interface, and the ability (for another .5 BU) to add a remote some day.

I don't like the fact that a type 1 pump is rated for "up to" 14 cu. in., and my cylinder is 13.3. Seems to be cutting it close. Then again, I'm likely to be at the helm and throttles myself in rough weather, not using an autopilot, which can't work the throttles.

The other thing I notice is the package doesn't come with a rudder position indicator. The literature implies that's not needed with the fancy multi-axis sensor and computer. But it also contains diagrams which show one. The price of that one component alone would put the whole package so far above the ComNav that I'd have to rule it out.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 08:38 AM   #55
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
I consider the rudder indicator to be a very usefull item. It allows me to set my rudders amidship for low speed manuvers with the props/engines. Indespensible.
kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 09:00 AM   #56
Guru
 
City: kemah
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 997
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
All this high amp hyd/electric stuff is great fun, BUT


Do you carry an easy to mount emergency tiller in any boat that does NOT have a mechanical steering?

Why not?
I do, well I should say the PO did. I havent carried anything out past the slip yet.
what_barnacles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 09:48 AM   #57
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Refugio
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,141
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptTom View Post
But I have to admit the Raymarine EVO-200 looks like a nice package, and "only" a few hundred ($700-800 to be exact) more than the ComNav, after rebate.
After rebate and minus the pump (which of course could be any 12vdc reversing pump of an appropriate capacity and would be the same no matter what the AP manufacturer) the Raymarine EV-200 is $1,450 for the EVO sensor, ACU-200, and P70R.

I cannot figure out what equivalent ComNav package you are considering that would cost only $750 total ($1,450 minus your $700).

The RayMarine can function without a rudder position, but this would be a poor optimization. So let's add a rudder reference (the RM unit is $230).

So...an EV-200 with Type 1 pump and rudder ref are net (after rebate) $2,330. And that compares to the ComNav 1500 with 5-14 ci pump and rudder feedback for...$3,579 online. True, you get your legacy NM0183 with the ComNav, but that's because (and this surprised me) it does not support NMEA 2000.

What ComNav package are YOU looking at?
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2016, 10:14 AM   #58
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,202
I assume you have looked at the Furuno NavPilot and ruled it out, probably because of cost? It's a good pilot and has both N2K and 0183 interfaces. But I'm not sure how the pricing compares. Probably more than you are looking for.
__________________
www.MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2016, 09:53 AM   #59
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,378
I'd love to see better pricing. Here are the best prices I've been able to find for each system (the GPS Store dot com and Defender):

Not counting shipping, that's a difference of $718.96.

I haven't found a huge difference in the pump costs, they all seem to be in the $500-700 range. The problem is, the Type 1 that Raymarine says works with the EVO-200 just barely meets the specs. Their documentation seems to suggest that if you use a Type 2, you need to go up to the EVO-400 (or whatever is the next size up), which is significantly more expensive. The ComNav pump specs puts my cylinder well within their pump's recommended range.

I'll go look at Furuno again, too. I usually like their stuff even better than Raymarine, but again I usually have trouble justifying the premium based on functionality.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2016, 10:22 AM   #60
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,534
"justifying the premium based on functionality."

There is always reliability to consider.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:04 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012