Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-07-2013, 02:17 PM   #1
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
Marine solenoid as combiner

For folks that prefer marine , Cole Hersey 24213 would be a very simple way to create a seamless (you do nothing) combiner to charge both the start and house batteries at the same time.

At only $40. or so it doesn't have the flash or bragging rights of $200, yachtie gear , but it works.

200A , (6-32v ) is probably larger than most aftermarket alternators .

The similar unit is $17.00 at the RV store , but only 75A or so.

KISS is easy , if you want to bother.
__________________
Advertisement

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 08:39 PM   #2
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,875
Fred:

That Cole Hersey relay is not the same as a combiner or ACR. It is a simple low voltage, high current relay.

A combiner or ACR is based on a relay that has a coil that will not pull in until the voltage applied to the coil rises to 13.5 or so volts and drops out at about 13 volts or maybe a bit less.

This lets you connect your charger or more likely your alternator to one battery bank (preferrably the house bank). Then when it gets close to charged and its voltage rises to 13.5 the coil pulls in, the contacts close and it connects the other bank to the charging source. Then when the engine is turned off and the alternator is no longer charging, the voltage on the house battery drops to below 13, the coil drops out, the contacts open and the two banks are isolated so one can't pull down the other.

Set up and wired properly this gives you a set and forget battery system without the inherent diode voltage drop of a battery isolator.

And good yachtie combiners aren't that expensive. Yandina sells a 100 amp unit for $65.

David
__________________

djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 09:25 PM   #3
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
I bought one of the Blue Seas combiners...doesn't tell you till you read the fine print in the instructions that if your batter banks are sufficiently different sizes and your alternator isn't big enough...then it won't work necessarily the way you would want/think it should.

If you have a deeply discharged house bank and a 75 amp or less charger....when it combines with the starter battery...the overall voltage drops and the combiner releases the huse bank...which then senses full voltage and tries to recombine...the instuctions call it "chattering"...no kidding.

So until I upgrade alternators...Fred's Neanderthal...KISS...method may be my upgrade from the simple ON/OFF switch that now combines the batteries...not much of an upgrade but saves the knees from a trip into the engine room.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 12:15 AM   #4
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I bought one of the Blue Seas combiners...doesn't tell you till you read the fine print in the instructions that if your batter banks are sufficiently different sizes and your alternator isn't big enough...then it won't work necessarily the way you would want/think it should.

If you have a deeply discharged house bank and a 75 amp or less charger....when it combines with the starter battery...the overall voltage drops and the combiner releases the huse bank...which then senses full voltage and tries to recombine...the instuctions call it "chattering"...no kidding.

So until I upgrade alternators...Fred's Neanderthal...KISS...method may be my upgrade from the simple ON/OFF switch that now combines the batteries...not much of an upgrade but saves the knees from a trip into the engine room.
The "chattering" of ACR units does happen, I've seen it.

There are some time delays built in so from what Ive experienced its not as bad as it sounds.

The "chattering" generally only happens (on the boats I saw it on) two or three times then the house battery bank reaches a stage where it will not drag down the engine battery enough to cause thew ACR to disconnect.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 06:25 AM   #5
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
The easy method of controlling the KISS relay is to install a start switch switch similar to an auto , that has an CC position.Marine versions are OTS.

On cars ACC is used to keep the toys unpowered during start , no drag from air cond , heater motors , no burning out the electronics with a hung starter.

The CC would simply be used to power the solenoid, , the engine operates , the batts are merged. DONE, no thinking or chattering,

Dockside once every few weeks ( when the boat is unused) the key would be switched to ACC allowing the house batts , which are on the shore charger to see the start batt ., IF you have a cheap single bank charger.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 09:32 AM   #6
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
The easy method of controlling the KISS relay is to install a start switch switch similar to an auto , that has an CC position.Marine versions are OTS.

On cars ACC is used to keep the toys unpowered during start , no drag from air cond , heater motors , no burning out the electronics with a hung starter.

The CC would simply be used to power the solenoid, , the engine operates , the batts are merged. DONE, no thinking or chattering,

Dockside once every few weeks ( when the boat is unused) the key would be switched to ACC allowing the house batts , which are on the shore charger to see the start batt ., IF you have a cheap single bank charger.
FF, there are some challenges with the relay idea.


Yes, you could hook the coil of the relay to the engine key switch, that would allow the engine to charge the house bank.

It would also cause some problems... For example when you go to start your engine, it would automatically be connected to the house bank. If your house bank was already lower in voltage than the engine battery it would draw current from the engine start battery, possibly allot of current. That would make the engine battery allot less effective at its primary job, which is starting the engine.

The high current load of the starter could also cause your house bank to dip in voltage, knocking your nav system offline, a bad thing as well.

Then you run into the charging issue. Many boats now days are equipped with a inverter/charger. These typically only have one output. Using ACR's the inverter/charger charges all of the banks from the inver/charger. The relay method does not do this automatically.

FF, as an electrical power system professional I have found that one of the greatest advances in ease of use for recreational marine DC power systems is the ACR. I have used them for a very long time and found that a properly designed system is pretty much "owner proof" in that it charges all banks from any source with no decisions needed from the owner.

ACR's are not expensive in terms of marine equipment, and offer allot of value in terms of functionality vs dollars expended. I only wish that all boat upgrades offered as much value.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 11:01 AM   #7
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,875
Kevin:

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said it better myself. The only downside to an ACR/combiner is the possible "chattering" problem discussed previously. And if you keep your starter battery reasonably well charged, it will never happen.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 11:50 AM   #8
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,170
For $60, the Yandina combiner can perform automatically like the Blue Sea ACR or you can connect a switch to allow manual OFF or ON as needed. I have not seen the need for manual ON since I have not experienced any chatter. I just hooked up the manual OFF side. A SPST switch on my header allows me to select OFF or AUTO.

I use the OFF position at the slip so my 2-bank charger can sense each bank independently and provide each the charge it needs. With my alternator upgrade, I'll be upgrading to the Yandina 160A combiner this summer and will offer my Yandina 100A (75A continuous) combiner to anyone who needs one.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 01:31 PM   #9
Guru
 
Brooksie's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod, MA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Island Seeker
Vessel Model: Willard 36 Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 954
Have had my BlueSeas ACR-SI for 2 seasons, never a problem. Very high quality and several nice additional features (which I don't use but you might) install & forget. $80. incuding shipping @ Amazon
Brooksie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 03:49 PM   #10
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,735
I also tried a Blue Seas ACR but it also did not work for me because my battery banks are different sizes according to Blue Seas. They did make a change to their systems though and lowered the drop out voltage. They sent me one of those as a replacement but I haven't tried it yet.
__________________
Jay Leonard
Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 05:15 PM   #11
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Kevin:

You are absolutely correct. Couldn't have said it better myself. The only downside to an ACR/combiner is the possible "chattering" problem discussed previously. And if you keep your starter battery reasonably well charged, it will never happen.

David
I was under the impression the directions pointed towards hooking the primary charge to the starter battery to ensure it's topped off and then let it switch (combine with) the house bank...the problem is if you have less than say a 4D starter batt and say 4 golf cart batts as your house bank that are at 50%....you need a mongo alternator to keep the voltage up to prevent chattering (at least according to my directions)

I guess a nearly fully charged start batt may not be drug down...guess I'll try it when I rewire the engine this summer.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 06:08 PM   #12
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: East Greenwich, RI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bella
Vessel Model: Mainship Pilot 34
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,875
That is why the best way is to wire the alternator to charge the house bank. Then when it comes up to full charge, the starting battery kicks in and since the starting battery is probably pretty full it won't cause the relay to drop out.

Hooking up the alternator to charge the house bank takes some rewiring as almost all engines come with the alternator and starter tied together. You have to run the alternator output directly to the house battery for this approach to work.

David
djmarchand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 07:00 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,170


Yup...What he said.

I did that (with twins) and have no regrets. Only thing I need to remedy is I lost my ammeter on the side charging the start battery. My battery monitor gives me good info on my stbd house side and fills the hole from the old stbd ammeter. I guess I need to find the shunt or figure out the wiring for the port ammeter.

(apologies for the sidebar)
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 09:18 PM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,864
except that if your alternator is small and your house bank is big....and you don't run for more than a few hours a day...not necessarily the best way to do it either if your first concern is the starting battery and keeping it topped off.

then again...enough batteries on board and it shouldn't matter either way.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 06:31 AM   #15
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
"It would also cause some problems... For example when you go to start your engine, it would automatically be connected to the house bank. If your house bank was already lower in voltage than the engine battery it would draw current from the engine start battery, possibly allot of current. That would make the engine battery allot less effective at its primary job, which is starting the engine."

Sorry wrong,

This is not correct as the solenoid is connected to the ACC terminal of a key switch , so during start the solenoid is not powered , the batts do not see each other..

So there is no draw down of the start system , except the starter itself..

The beauty of the system is the lack of downside , it does the job with no operator knowledge/understanding/input required.

Being reliable and cheap is just a bonus.

The house batts will drag down the start batt voltage when they are combined which is what gets the house charged., but NOT the start batt set.

A very modest sized alt will usually hold the charge to at least 12.6 -8 , the point where the start is fully charged and the house being lower takes most of the voltage as charge.

It takes at least 1 volt of higher than resting voltage to charge the house set in modest time , but the start is not being run down if the supplied voltage is its normal float voltage .

As the house gets charged the puny alt will slowly be able to raise the voltage to hopefully 14 or so where both systems are fully charged.

This is much faster with a 3 stage V reg than with an imbecile auto one wire alt.V regulator.

With a nice big truck 150A alt and a 3 stage regulator the start batt will probably never go as low as float during a huge almost dead house bank charge.

120V Battery chargers can seldom make their rated amperage at a good voltage with less than a 10KW noisemaker , so a 150A alt belted to the noisemaker is a better investment if you anchor out a lot..
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #16
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"It would also cause some problems... For example when you go to start your engine, it would automatically be connected to the house bank. If your house bank was already lower in voltage than the engine battery it would draw current from the engine start battery, possibly allot of current. That would make the engine battery allot less effective at its primary job, which is starting the engine."

Sorry wrong,

This is not correct as the solenoid is connected to the ACC terminal of a key switch , so during start the solenoid is not powered , the batts do not see each other..

So there is no draw down of the start system , except the starter itself..

The beauty of the system is the lack of downside , it does the job with no operator knowledge/understanding/input required.

Being reliable and cheap is just a bonus.

The house batts will drag down the start batt voltage when they are combined which is what gets the house charged., but NOT the start batt set.

A very modest sized alt will usually hold the charge to at least 12.6 -8 , the point where the start is fully charged and the house being lower takes most of the voltage as charge.

It takes at least 1 volt of higher than resting voltage to charge the house set in modest time , but the start is not being run down if the supplied voltage is its normal float voltage .

As the house gets charged the puny alt will slowly be able to raise the voltage to hopefully 14 or so where both systems are fully charged.

This is much faster with a 3 stage V reg than with an imbecile auto one wire alt.V regulator.

With a nice big truck 150A alt and a 3 stage regulator the start batt will probably never go as low as float during a huge almost dead house bank charge.

120V Battery chargers can seldom make their rated amperage at a good voltage with less than a 10KW noisemaker , so a 150A alt belted to the noisemaker is a better investment if you anchor out a lot..

OK FF I missed that you have to replace your key switches with automotive types that have an ACC position.

IF you connect the relay up as you described. IF you replace your key switches then the system will act as if you had a manual on-off switch combining the banks whenever you have your engine running.

The challenge remains that the system you're describing ONLY works when you are running your engine.

It DOES NOT work when you are plugged into shore power, or recharging via the generator UNLESS you have a multi bank battery charger.

So, in the end, by using the relay VS the ACR you have a system that WILL NOT WORK with any of the very high quality inverter/chargers that are on the market.

You have saved a few bucks by buying the relay over the ACR but you have spent much of that savings on new key switches. You have also had to run new wire all the way to your dash and increased the complexity of your wiring to boot.

and BTW... your comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
120V Battery chargers can seldom make their rated amperage at a good voltage with less than a 10KW noisemaker , so a 150A alt belted to the noisemaker is a better investment if you anchor out a lot..
is pure fiction. 100% fiction

As an example... On my last boat I was able to make full rated capacity of my 50 amp battery charger using my little $750 honda 1,000 watt portable generator. On my current boat I have a 9 kw Northern lights generator and it will produce 75 amps of pure sine wave power.

Heres the facts about generators and the quality of power they produce...

A rotating brushless generator by its very nature produces a pure sinusodial wave form. The only problem we have is in the voltage regulation section.

The concept is that a generator uses DC current to drive its output. If that DC current is "clean" the output will be a pure sine wave.

The voltage regulators job is to convert some of the AC output of the generator to a DC current that is inversly proportional to the output voltage of the generator. Less generator output = more DC current. Thats how it keeps the voltage stady under varying load conditions.

The problem with voltage regulators is that they use varying technologies to produce that DC current. Cheap home generators (not the inverter type) use capacitors to produce the DC current. The DC current is not perfectly clean, thats why you can see your lights flicker when using a capacitor regulated generator.

The other methods of voltage regulation are transformer and solid state. A transformer regulator like I've seen on some generators does a pretty good job. They react very quickly to varying loads but are not as "clean" as the solid state types. A transformer regulator is still a very good regulator and few battery chargers will have any issues with power produced from one.

A solid state regulator on the other hand is almost perfect. The power out is a clean DC current, therefore the power out of the generator is a pure sine wave.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2013, 06:27 AM   #17
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,515
It DOES NOT work when you are plugged into shore power, or recharging via the generator UNLESS you have a multi bank battery charger.

The key switches can use the ACC position , usually by rotating the key in the other direction from start.

Remember listening to the radio while watching the submarine races in high skool?

A cole hersey marine key switch fits in most key switch holes , and the controlling wire can be #18 not that costly in yacht bucks.

The problem with small generators and a batt charger is they frequently can show amps , but the voltage (really the power) is not there.

While a batt is charged with any voltage over resting , at least a volt is common , but MORE works better.

A "dead " house set might read 11.5V , and the small gen set will put out 12.5 V to actually charge at 50A , but a better genset will allow the charger to run 50 A at 14+V resulting in a faster charge.

Its not weather a noisemaker makes a sine wave , its the power under the sine that is key

The higher voltage of a more efficient faster charge does require the temperature to be monitored on the batt. set.

Common on most 3 stage alternator V regulators.OTS.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012