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Old 04-05-2013, 08:59 AM   #21
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I think it may actually hurt you. Most folks aren't associating LiPo batteries with goodness right now. Even in the best of times I can see no case where LiPos would outperform lead acid batts in a boat. Most of us can carry the weight without issue, and replace them many times over for the cost of LiPos.

They are great technology, but still no cost effective on boats.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:13 AM   #22
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Most of us can carry the weight without issue, and replace them many times over for the cost of LiPos. They are great technology, but still no cost effective on boats.
In my case, the first set of Trojan 105s lasted 8 years. The second set is now entering its third year at a replacement cost of about $940 for the 8 wet acid batteries. I see no reason to consider AGMs, Lis or NiCds for house or starting on a cost basis in my vessel. But I do use AGMs for the bow thruster.

Murray, assuming he is 12 years old, will live long enough to see his set of Li batteries last for his 92 year lifetime and thus earn the cost advantages of his set of Lis assuming 0% inflation and a 0% interest rate for the next 80 years. However, on an real world NPV basis his batteries will be worth more than his boat in about 20 years suggesting a nice simple LA setup would be in his best financial interest.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:18 AM   #23
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Murray, assuming he is 12 years old, will live long enough to see his set of Li batteries last for his 92 year lifetime and thus earn the cost advantages of his set of Lis assuming 0% inflation and a 0% interest rate for the next 80 years. However, on an real world NPV basis his batteries will be worth more than his boat in about 20 years suggesting a nice simple LA setup would be in his best financial interest.
While not 12 years old, I've been told I am quite immature for my age

I'm not buying, just asking questions...
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:31 AM   #24
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I think it may actually hurt you. Most folks aren't associating LiPo batteries with goodness right now.............
They are cost effective and great for cameras, computers, cordless tools, etc.. I don't think anyone would chose something else for these applications.

I agree that they aren't cost effective for boats at the present time. Get the cost down to equal AGMs and they might be.
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Old 04-05-2013, 11:56 AM   #25
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It depends on your usage if they are cost effective. If you are a full time cruiser and anchor out most all the time, LiFePO4 cells are the cheapest in the long run when you consider cycle life. My next house/propulsion bank will be these cells.

If weight vs energy density is a major consideration, the LiFePO4 is the way to go. I have an electric kayak that with the group 27 LA had 16~18 nm range, for the same weight in LiFePO4 cells runs 80 nm, perfect for kayak camping. Great charge acceptance, I have an 8 lb 50 amp charger that will recharge one bank during lunch at a marina.

Also, ratings are very conservative. A LA battery gets its a-hr rating based on a 20 hour rate of discharge or 0.05C to full discharge (100% DOD). A LiFePO4 gets its rating at 1.0C to 80% DOD. So, comparing apples to apples, a 200 a-hr LA battery at 1.0C discharge due to peukert effect will only have 140 a-hr capacity and LA should not be discharged lower than 50% DOD (if you want 500 cycles) for a usable capacity of 70 a-hr. The LiFePO4 can be discharged to 80% DOD and even at a 1.0C discharge will deliver its 100 a-hr rating for 3000 cycles.

(2) 100 a-hr 12 volt (13 volt) packs
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:34 PM   #26
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You need to use cycles per lifetime per cell to get a real idea of cost savings. I venture to to guess that even the most aggressive of cruisers won't cycle them enough to make the business case work.

Most business cases that won't close (positive NPV within 18 mos) are because we try to use the same logic being used here.

If we plan to have a set of batteries last 5 years... full cycle every night, you might have a problem that LiPo makes sense, but even then I'd bet the math isn't in your favor.

They are very cool. I fly them in RC planes and they are remarkable when you need high current, fast discharge power. But... there's nothing fast about my baot.
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Old 04-05-2013, 02:46 PM   #27
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They are cost effective and great for cameras, computers, cordless tools, etc.. I don't think anyone would chose something else for these applications.
I would choose something else for the cordless tools you mentioned. NiCad.

I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools. Stupidly expensive for no benefit real or perceived. The folks that expound their virtues in the tool application, and there are plenty of them, seldom use them professionally. If they do they are maintenance personnel or homeowners looking for a cool toy. Hardly what I would call rugged field use.

Ryobi makes the most cost efficient tool in the category and their NiCad batteries can be replaced with new when needed for less than $30/pair in 18 volt.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:07 PM   #28
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Weight might be a valid reason. You can get amperage from a given weight of LiPo battery that you'll never see in a NiCd or NiMH pack. It's for the same reason we fly with them.

A battery that weighs 488 grams (just over a pound) can deliver 5000Mah (at up to 40C)! @24VDC

You could literally start your boat with a battery that fits in your pocket.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:18 PM   #29
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Like I said, depends on the application. I have 3 EVs, and in that arena LiFePO4 is the only way to go and the cheapest. For cordless power tools I've used the 36 volt Dewalt system that uses A123 lithium batteries and can tell you first hand that the circular saw will cut faster than any plug in saw I've used when plugged into the typical 50' extension cord. The next time I'm out cruising full time, my sailboat will have an all electric galley all the way to a 1650 watt BBQ I'm using now. It and the other systems will be powered by a 48 volt 1400 a-hr LiFePO4 bank, that will be used as the inverter/propulsion bank. The dinghy will also be electric powered, and for long range exploring I have that electric powered kayak. My intent is to do away with gasoline and propane, and be able to lounge on the hook for as long as I want.
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Old 04-05-2013, 08:54 PM   #30
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I would choose something else for the cordless tools you mentioned. NiCad.

I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools. Stupidly expensive for no benefit real or perceived.
Dunno about that. Makita is gradually changing their cordless power tool line over to lithium batteries. We recently bought a new lithium battery 1/2" drill to replace the older Makita nicad drill that if you can even find batteries for they are more expensive than buying a whole new drill. The nicads gave up several years ago and would no longer hold a charge for more than a few days. And the cost for the new lithium 1/2" drill was not much different than the cost of the nicad drill it was replacing.

We recently had some work done on our house. Everybody from the guy who ran the gas line into the kitchen for the new stove to the guy who was making wall modifications had new lithium-powered tools and thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. In fact they were the ones who inspired us to go out and get our own new Makita drill.

As I mentioned earlier, all our professional video gear---cameras, new LED lights, audio equipment, HD field monitors--- are all powered by lithium battery packs and have been for a number of years now. There is no way the old ni-cad batteries could even come close in terms of performance and longevity.

Based on my own experience with lithium batteries, I would never buy anything powered by nicad batteries again. They are simply not cost-effective anymore in my opinion.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:29 PM   #31
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Depends on what you need.

LiPo is awesome for high-cycle, hi-current devices. They're light, powerful and discharge incredibly strong (15C-20C is average). They do require special charging, handling and can't be allowed to completely discharge like nicads.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:33 PM   #32
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I would choose something else for the cordless tools you mentioned. NiCad.

I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools. Stupidly expensive for no benefit real or perceived. The folks that expound their virtues in the tool application, and there are plenty of them, seldom use them professionally. If they do they are maintenance personnel or homeowners looking for a cool toy. Hardly what I would call rugged field use.

Ryobi makes the most cost efficient tool in the category and their NiCad batteries can be replaced with new when needed for less than $30/pair in 18 volt.
Well, your response makes me hesitate to disagree with you because you are implying that I am stupid for buying/using them. That's one of the mindsets that makes participation in the forum unpleasant at times.

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I would not and will not own lithium battery operated tools.
You are backing yourself into a corner here. There may come a time when the best (or only) tools for the job are lithium battery operated. What will you do then, go back to corded tools? Brace and bit?
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:42 PM   #33
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I bought this set last year. The power is AMAZING! They rival anything that a corded tool can do and are MUCH stronger than anything NiCd or NiMh. Got it for $100 off and an extra battery to boot.

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Old 04-06-2013, 12:58 AM   #35
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Thanks SDC for the links.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:20 AM   #36
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I'm guessing your not pro lithium. Even though the thread is labeled lithium ion, we all know that isn't the chemistry of the cells we would use as house banks. LiFePO4 do not have the thermal issues of lithium ion, and due to very low voltage sag under heavy discharge, makes for a perfect battery for inverter loads.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:40 AM   #37
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Its not the type of the battery,its about charging and how deep you will run the battery.Its to risky and to complicated.

DEEP CYCLE BATTERY FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS


Shallower the average depth-of-discharge (DoD), increases the battery life. For example, a battery with an average of 50% DoD will last twice as long or more as an 80% DoD; a 20% DoD battery will last five times longer than a 50% DoD. For example, golf cart batteries will average 225 cycles at 80% DoD and increase to 750 cycles at 50% DoD. Try to avoid DoD that is less than 10% or greater than 80%. Industrial traction and stationary deep cycle batteries are designed for 80% DoD and most marine an RV deep cycle batteries are designed for 50% DoD.........

Starting (Used as a deep cycle)
0 to 12 months
Marine
to 6 years
Golf Cart
to 6 years
Gelled Deep Cycle
to 8 years
AGM
to 10 years
Ni-Cad
to 10 years
Telecommunications (Float)
to 10 years
Fork Lift
to 10 years
Industrial (Traction)
to 20 years
Industrial (Stationary)
to 20 years
Ni-Fe
to 20 years
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:00 AM   #38
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I'm guessing your not pro lithium. Even though the thread is labeled lithium ion, we all know that isn't the chemistry of the cells we would use as house banks. LiFePO4 do not have the thermal issues of lithium ion, and due to very low voltage sag under heavy discharge, makes for a perfect battery for inverter loads.
I just do not see the reason to spend so much money for batteries.On cruising sailboats that use 25 to 35 amp/h we can get easy 6 to 8 years per battery bank with AGM batteries.
3 X 7 AMP solars and Superwind 350 wind generator,Hawaii to Sydney with 15 gall of diesel.

http://genasun.com/products-store/li...ttery-systems/

$ 6 400.00 per battery and $ 9000.00 for hydrogenerator, for VOR boats make sense
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:12 AM   #39
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I just do not see the reason to spend so much money for batteries.On cruising sailboats that use 25 to 35 amp/h we can get easy 6 to 8 years per battery bank with AGM batteries.
3 X 7 AMP solars and Superwind 350 wind generator,Hawaii to Sydney with 15 gall of diesel.

Lithium Battery Systems | Genasun

$ 6 400.00 per battery and $ 9000.00 for hydrogenerator, for VOR boats make sense
At those prices I agree with you. But for less than $4500 I can assemble a 48 volt (52 volt) 700 a-hr bank (36.4 KW-hr), that will run A/C, electric galley through an inverter plus give 60 nm range of electric propulsion. Check the price per 700 a-hr cell > Balqon - Advanced Transportation Solution and each cell is a very manageable 47 lbs. Life is good in the LiFePO4 camp. I was an early adopter for marine use because I also build EVs, but check out this thread on the Cruiser's Forum and you will see I have a lot of company. 173 page thread with 2500+ posts all on LiFePO4 cells. LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks - Page 173 - Cruisers & Sailing Forums
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:54 AM   #40
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I really like the idea of these batteries diva.net 4500 dollars the prices are ridiculous my thought is much better to spend money on solar panels
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