Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 06-19-2014, 07:48 AM   #21
Guru
 
Steve's Avatar
 
City: Thibodaux, Louisiana
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Gumbo
Vessel Model: 2003 Monk 36
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,605
Here is a link to some information, by a SELLER of Li-on batteries for off grid systems. Including a link to a cost comparison to AGM 8-D.

Lithium-Ion vs Lead-Acid battery - PowerTech Systems PowerTech Systems

I think, so far, they are great in hand tools but am not ready to try them in a boat till they are well proven in that application
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Steve W.
http://mvgumbo.blogspot.com/
Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 12:04 PM   #22
Guru
 
City: Tuckerton, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: WIRELESS ONE
Vessel Model: 36 Gulstar MarkII
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 937
This doesn't bother you?
AGM
Lifespan 500 cycles at 50% DOD
Lithium Battery
1900 cycles at 90% DOD

Not exactly an Apples to Apples comparison
Bill
__________________

Billylll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:39 PM   #23
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billylll View Post
This doesn't bother you?
AGM
Lifespan 500 cycles at 50% DOD
Lithium Battery
1900 cycles at 90% DOD

Not exactly an Apples to Apples comparison
Bill
Bill - But... if the batts torch after 501 or even 1899 cycles - BIG OUCH!!!

500 cycles with safe and way less costly batts = approx 10 years if 50% DOD is averaged once per week. Near 5 years if twice per week. Those are higher than average annual overall use-times for most boaters.

1900 cycles with not yet completely safe and very costly batts = approx 38 years and 19 years at same use-time ratios. Within either time span just imagine how safe those batts could be made, as well as what new type of "Super Batts" may become available?!?! And, owning the same boat for 19 years is a long time; 38 years is basically a lifetime!

I'm sticking with "Batteries + Lamps" East Philidephia built old-school wet batts. Cost me about $600 for full replacement when required. Safe as all-get-out from explosion/fire with terminals kept covered. Last up to ten years as long as water added to keep full, not power-drained too low, and charged correctly to correct charge levels. That = approx $60 per year batt expense! IMHO - Can't Beat It!!

Happy Boat Batt Daze! - Art
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:39 PM   #24
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
I don't believe anyone is questioning the value of Lithium Ion batteries over conventional systems. The issue right now is safety. If a AGM or lead acid battery fails, you buy a new battery. If an LI battery fails you might have to buy a new boat.

Once the price comes down and they prove to be reliable and safe. Everyone will want to jump over to the Lithium side.

PS: Yes Boeing continues to use LI batteries in it's 787 model. But as a stop gap to satisfy the FAA, they also built a very heavy stainless steel vault to contain the LI batteries with a venting system outside the planes fuselage. I don't think many of us are prepared to undertake that project just yet!!
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:45 PM   #25
Guru
 
City: Tuckerton, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: WIRELESS ONE
Vessel Model: 36 Gulstar MarkII
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 937
I'm an AGM fan. I have had excellent results with Lifeline and hopefully DEKA Unigy1's that I'm using for my Gulfstar. I think the price of LI's are still cost prohibitive and most warranties don't match the sales numbers (# of cycles in it's lifetime).
I really like the power to weight ratio of LI batteries.
I would be more interested if they gave a warranty that matched their claimed life cycles even if you had to use their BMS which I agree is a must have with LI battery cells.
Bill
Billylll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:49 PM   #26
Guru
 
City: Tuckerton, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: WIRELESS ONE
Vessel Model: 36 Gulstar MarkII
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 937
The problem I had with the example given is why a 50% discharge for AGM's and only a 90% discharge for LI's? If I only discharged my AGM's to 90% I'd get more cycles than discharging them to 50%.
You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill
Billylll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:53 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
capt jerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 321
se them in my model airplanes but they are tricky and you have to be carefull when charging them, they can blow up if you over charge them,or if you drop them. AGMS is the way to go in a boat if you can afford them?
capt jerry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 01:57 PM   #28
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
"You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill"
------------------


They're salesmen, trying to sell you their products!!

In the words of British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli. . . . "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics!"
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2014, 02:01 PM   #29
Art
Guru
 
Art's Avatar
 
City: SF Bay Area
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Tollycraft 34' Tri Cabin
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 7,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billylll View Post
The problem I had with the example given is why a 50% discharge for AGM's and only a 90% discharge for LI's? If I only discharged my AGM's to 90% I'd get more cycles than discharging them to 50%.
You don't think their example has the numbers skewed?
Bill
Following of course includes batteries of all types:

Honestly - I feel claims made by manufacturers of any product are too often way off beat regarding what will occur during actual long term use by a person in the general public. The tests performed and stats provided are usually controlled tests under best conditions. Also, every person uses every product in different ways and often under individualized circumstances.

The two items I currently have against Litho batts is the fire/explosion danger and current tall-costs. Otherwise, that battery technology seems great. Solve the fire and cost problems then Im IN!
Art is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 11:33 AM   #30
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Vancouver Shipyards Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,443
Lithium batteries can be discharged to 5% before damage but lead-acid is 50%. Those numbers are not skewed, maybe 5% too conservative.

Don't you discharge your cordless drill, cell phone or iPad batteries to "0?" You don't stop at half power. The circuit in the battery cuts off the power at "about" 5% and the device calls it zero.

You do stop using your lead-acid house bank at 50%, right?

There is no downside to lithium now, IMHO, except their high cost. The fire risk is still lower than the risk of fire from a shore power cord or winter heater, both of which thin our ranks every year. Bring the cost down and suddenly we will all be using them.

Billy, I think you are getting it backwards.

Edelweiss, don't you put your batteries in a box? Why do you?

Also, a rhetorical question - how many of you boat owners have lithium batteries in your homes, your pockets, your cars, virtually every part of your lives? How many lithium batteries do you have onboard right now?
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 12:22 PM   #31
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,859
My question would be.....?????

If LARGE lithium battery banks were that much better and so safe...why wouldn't everybody be using them?

Sure they are all over the place on a small scale...but isn't that true of a lot of newer tech????
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 12:55 PM   #32
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Vancouver Shipyards Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,443
Cost. Make the cost competitive and they will take off. That's why nickel-cadmium and nickel-metal hydride are already obsolete because lithium is better and now cheap enough. But not on boats or cars yet. I'll bet a case of Thirsty Beaver that all high-end new cars will all have lithium batteries in, say, 5 years? Not so much for a Yaris, say, but the smaller footprint and lighter weight matter for fuel economy. The amount of power new cars use, with all the electrical stuff, is much more than in the past. I read a story where the mobile car servicing companies like BCAA have to carry way more batteries and now jump way more cars now than ever before.
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
Xsbank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 01:14 PM   #33
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,859
But if the cost benefit is true...then some (not necessarily all) businesses would be pressing on...must be something else....

When I'm not well versed on a particular theory, product or methodology...I tend to revert to "what's the rest of the world doing"...
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 01:26 PM   #34
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
One thing to keep in mind is not to paint lithium batteries with too broad a brush. There are several different chemistries at play here and about every year or so a newer chemistry comes out.

Long winded way of saying the batteries that gave Boeing a black eye are not necessarily the same batteries you find in a laptop or off grid storage bank. "LI" is only the common prefix, there's normally several letter/number combos that follow them. Those follow on digits are where the chemical make up changes significantly.
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 03:36 PM   #35
Veteran Member
 
City: Seattle, WA.
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 77
Tesla is pumping out ~9000 lithium battery powered cars per year with many, many more to come. No fires yet that weren't due to something else. That should help move along the conversion.
goboatnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 08:40 AM   #36
Newbie
 
City: Woodstock, VA
Country: US
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatnow View Post
Tesla is pumping out ~9000 lithium battery powered cars per year with many, many more to come. No fires yet that weren't due to something else. That should help move along the conversion.
Add 50,000 each year for The Leaf and the Volt and there are a lot of big battery packs being used a lot more then people use their boats and doing it very safely. I suspect if the price were to go down a lot of our "safety" concerns would too. :-)

Jim
jkleins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 09:53 AM   #37
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,358
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenniscaptain View Post
I am considering the new generation Lithium Batteries for my powercat. It seems the safety issues with these have been dealt with properly. Now, the upside is substantial. Any opinions on the new Lithium batteries by Smart?
Back to the original question. If weight savings and space are important, and price OK with your personal wallet, by all means give them a good look. In FL where solar panels can be implemented (as compared to Northern locations) a real application indeed has been shown.

Search the archives and you'll find a good discussion by some very smart Li battery user/builders from your area. These people have left TF since new things are all too easily cast aside in internet mud slinging. But be advised, doing Li battery installs without the right electrical setup is a no no.

Now, for a slow heavy trawler I love lead, the more the better as it serves as great ballast.

For the new to boating guys, a burning battery can give you a sinking feeling. With a Tesla you just park it when the smell gets above the seat leather whiffs.
sunchaser is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 11:51 AM   #38
Guru
 
Edelweiss's Avatar
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 1976 Californian Tricabin LRC
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,834
I don't hear anybody saying LI batteries are bad. . . they're just not ready for prime time!!

Best advice, check with your insurance company before you buy. Here, in part, is what Boat US say about LI:

Lithium-Ion Batteries:
Handle With Care
For most recreational boaters, the expense and risks still outweigh the benefits of this rapidly-evolving technology.

Published: April 2014

Who wouldn't want a battery one-quarter the weight and size of their current lead-acid battery but with comparable energy storage capacity? Most of us have grown comfortable with the lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries in our smartphones and laptops, so it's natural to assume they will work in cars, on aircraft, and in our boats. Unfortunately, safely scaling up these compact, energy-dense batteries to the much larger sizes needed to meet heavy-duty energy demands is not straightforward. In addition, the technology is still developing, and there are already enough types of Li-ion batteries to tongue tie a chemical engineer: lithium iron phosphate, lithium manganese oxide, and lithium nickel manganese cobalt, to name a few. Each has its own voltage, energy density, and safety characteristics. Before getting lost in the details of these competing chemistries, any boater considering installing Li-ion batteries on their vessel needs to understand the risks and the costs, not just the benefits.

Li-ion Battery Challenges
Unlike conventional batteries, when Li-ion batteries fail, they can do so catastrophically. Here's the problem: When an individual Li-ion cell gets overcharged, it gets hot. This can initiate a process of self-heating that causes the cell temperature to continue to rise even if the cell is taken off charge something known as thermal runaway. Once started, thermal runaway is difficult to stop. Depending on the battery chemistry, the cell may get hot enough to spontaneously catch fire.

It gets worse: If a single cell enters thermal runaway, it begins to overheat its neighbor, which overheats the next one, and so on. This can cause a cascading failure that results in the battery burning uncontrollably. Even if a cell that has entered thermal runaway does not get hot enough to catch fire, it can swell up and rupture, venting the flammable electrolyte.

The potential for thermal runaway with any Li-ion battery chemistry means that when installing them on boats, they aren't plug-and-play. They charge at different voltages than lead-acid batteries do, and simply connecting them to a conventional charger is asking for trouble. To keep their concentrated power in check, Li-ion batteries rely on a sophisticated management system that actually tracks and balances the voltage differences between each cell, unlike the monitoring systems used with lead-acid batteries that simply show you what's going on. Among other things, proper management systems also contain over-voltage and short-circuit protection. Unfortunately, these management systems are vulnerable to lightning strikes or power surges, and any failure in the system can lead to a fire. While some Li-ion chemistries may be more resistant to thermal runaway than others, if you mismatch a charging system or choose the wrong battery management system, you could still find yourself with a charred hull. That's why the design and installation of Li-ion battery systems are best left to professionals.

If the potential dangers of Li-ion batteries are not enough to convince a hopeful early adopter to wait for the technology to mature, the price almost certainly will. A single replacement house battery will set you back around $2,000, and that's before the battery management system and the upgrades to alternators, battery chargers, and voltage regulators.

The Future Of Li-ion Batteries
Li-ion batteries have a bit in common with propane tanks: They're a high-energy storage system that is potentially dangerous. Fortunately, with propane, we (usually) manage to avoid disaster. But propane systems have a complete set of American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) safety standards that govern their installation and use. While the ABYC is closely following developments, Li-ion batteries are an evolving technology, one that the aircraft and auto industries still haven't perfected. Until the market narrows down to one or two chemistries and reliable, robust battery management systems, it's all but impossible to develop standards for the safe installation and use of Li-ion batteries on boats.

While Li-ion batteries may just revolutionize heavy-duty energy storage someday, the costs and risks still outweigh the benefits for most recreational boats. Until more data exist on which type of Li-ion batteries work best for boats, and what unexpected issues may arise, Seaworthy recommends that most boaters steer clear of these compact, high-energy batteries. For the few boats where the benefits of Li-ion batteries might outweigh the expense and the risks, such as offshore racing sailboats and tournament bass boats, we recommend that the systems be professionally installed and professionally maintained.End of story marker


The damage-avoidance newsletter, is brought to you by the BoatUS Marine Insurance Program. For an insurance quote, please call 1-800-283-2883 or apply online at BoatUS.com.
__________________
Larry B
Careful . . .I Have a Generator and I'm not afraid to use it !
Edelweiss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 08:53 AM   #39
Guru
 
City: Satsuma FL
Country: United States
Vessel Name: No Mo Trawla
Vessel Model: Hurricane SS188
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,672
Just looked at Genasun 2014 pricing (that was supposed to be 2015 pricing). Geez, 7 boat bucks for a 360AH one battery system???
Donsan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:50 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
City: MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Blue Yonder
Vessel Model: 37
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 346
I'm not sure I want these in a vehicle that I can't pull over and get out of.

BBC News - Safety worries lead US airline to ban battery shipments

How do you put out a lithium battery fire?

Suppressing Lithium Ion Battery Fires | Aircraft Fire Suppression System Ventura Aerospace, Inc
__________________

BlueYonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012