Lithium batteries

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BruceK

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Has anyone been using them long enough to get an idea of likely lifespan? Or have other sources of information? I`m checking a 2010 boat fitted with them. Current owner had the boat 3yrs, he didn`t fit them, he suspects they are original. Brand on boxes in pics is "Enerdrive". They won`t be cheap to replace.
 
I would imagine life expectancy has more to do with how they were used, abused, and stored. I have no 1st hand experience with them in boats, but a fair amount in underwater propulsion vehicles. Life expectancy is hugely based on how they were used. Some like to be stored full where as others want to be partially discharged. If I was serious about the boat, I would try to get owner's manual for the batteries and contact the manufacturer if still in business. I would also budget to replace them just in case.

Ted
 
I have had a little experience with them, upgrading from flooded batteries to Lithium in golf carts and utility vehicles. Lithium's can last orders of magnitude longer than typical flooded or AGM batteries, but are very sensitive to individual cell charging/discharging.(actually cell voltage limitations - low and high) Cell to cell balance is critical. Charging systems can be complex and expensive. And like most batteries, if charging gets out of control -the end can come quickly.


The biggest advantage is energy density per pound of battery - can be ten times a flooded type.

Go to the Battery University web site. Pretty good write up there on all battery types. Unless weight and or power density is an issue I would not consider them - sailboat with no gen set -solar power only maybe!!

Definitely check out the mfg and operating history.


Unfortunately one corroded connector on the charging system can be very damaging.
 
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The seller told me the PO to him fitted solar, and had battery issues he tried to resolve by more adding solar. Boat does look to have a lot of solar panel. Seller found batts discharging overnight after purchase, got in a tech who found a reversed charger connection(? he meant a reversed diode). Fixed that and all worked as intended.
With that history of discharge over an extended period etc, best I regard them as probably screwed and expensive to replace.
 
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Bruce
Does the boat need Li batteries? Maybe replace with AGMs, Firefly or FLA for less money. With a genset and some solar you've several options.
 
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I'm been powering an off-grid house with LFP (one of the several different li-ion chemistries) for just about a year now. I love them, and would never use lead again for any sort of power system, including on a boat. The Nordhavn 68 that I'm building will have LFP as well, along with about a half dozen other Nordhavn's in recent production.


The most important thing to understand is that there are different types of Li batteries and they are VERY different from a safety perspective. They are different in other ways too, but the safety difference is the most important on for a boat. Everyone has heard about the 787 battery issue, Samsung phones, and various other Li battery fires. In those applications, including in cars, packing as much power as possible into the smallest space, and lightest weight is what it's all about. As a result, they all use so-called NMC or LFC chemistries. These are much higher power density, but also much more volatile.


LFP is a lower power density, and much more stable chemistry, and the only thing I would consider for use on a boat. There are numerous studies, tests, and videos of LFP batteries having nails drive through them, dead short circuits, flame throwers, etc. LFP batteries just smoulder and off-gas, where NMC and LFC batteries catch fire and take off in a cascading fire until there is nothing left. Which would you want on your boat? LFP is very stable, and I think actually less dangerous than lead.



But the reason I love them is because they just work much, much better than lead. They cost more, the premium is reducing quickly. My boat system, which will be a manufactured, fully engineered, packaged system, is only about 50% more $$ than equivalent usable capacity AGMs.



Why I like them:


- They don't off-gas one of the most explosive gasses on the planet.



- They aren't filled with one of the most highly corrosive acids on the planet.



They aren't filled with lead which is one of the most toxic materials on the planet.


- They don't heat up when used or when charged, assuming use comparable to how you would use a lead battery.


- They accept full charge current right up until they are full. There is no more long drawn out absorption stage that drags out charging time, and generator run time. Then end result is that you can recharge is about 75% of the time it takes to charge and equivalent lead battery, using the same charger(s). And they can typically accept higher charge currents, so can charge even faster if you want. With lead, increasing charge current produces significantly diminishing returns after a certain point. With LFP, a full recharge from empty to full can very reasonably be done in 2-3 hrs.


- They are much more efficient than lead. 98-99% vs 80-85%. So what goes in, come back out. This is particularly helpful if you are also using solar since you can capture and use that much more of the produced power.


- You can run them indefinitely at any state of charge. No more worries about draining them all the way down, or not fully recharging frequently enough or full enough.


But of course there are some down sides.


All batteries will be ruined if you over-discharge them, or over charge them. But with LFP, death is a bit more abrupt and certain. So where with lead you might be able to get away with a little slip up or two, chances are you would completely kill your LFP battery.


As a result, nearly all LFP batteries have protections built in to disconnect them just short of disaster. This is akin to a low voltage cutout that is incorporated in nearly every inverter to keep it from unintentionally flattening your batteries. In every way, the same protections would benefit lead batteries, but we don't use them. Largely because of the higher cost of LFP, they are common place.


Similarly, you need to be mindful of over charging, so need to be sure all your chargers are set so they will not over charge the batteries. It's typically not a big deal to do this, but you can't just blow it off or it could be a costly mistake.


But all this is good practice anyway, and shouldn't lead you to believe LFP is in any way fragile. It's just the opposite. Keep it within well understood limits, and they just work, day in and day out, with no fuss. Honestly, much LESS fuss than lead because you dopn't have to worry about leaving them at a low level for too long, or getting them fully recharged frequently enough. You can literally ignore them.


So to the OP's question, I don't believe anyone knows yet how long LFP will actually last in a boat application. There are lots of tests demonstrating 2000 cycles, but anything more than that is just extrapolation at this point. But keep in mind that 2000 cycles is probably 10 years on a boat, and that would be for a pretty heavily used boat that is going through a full battery discharge/charge cycle 200 days per year. I'll bet few if any of us come even close to that.


For the particular boat you are looking at, the first and most important thing I would check is what chemistry the batteries are. If they are LFP, I would just happily use them. If they are something else, I would probably plan on replacing them, just for safety reasons.
 
Good post Peter. The batteries in question appear to be part of an overall system provided by Enerdrive out of Brisbane. The batteries are most likely LFP. As pretty well stated on TF by many users, the virtues of LFPs are well known with hundreds if not thousands of success stories.

For the OP, the question may well be geared more to the overall installation which could include the total Enerdrive system - batteries,inverter, charger and battery and system monitoring. I know little of Enerdrive but do know that the LFP business as it applies to mobile, floating and land based systems has had its fair share of corporate hiccups.

Hopefully Enerdrive is robust with good support in the OP's cruising grounds. When buying a new boat with an overall LFP system all questions should be fair game. No different than assessing engines, hull integrity and overall condition.
 
Find batt age. Run load test. Perchance they are old or load test not good... if I were the purchaser... I'd put full cost of replacement on the table during price negotiations. And, from what twistedtree mentions; if not going LA batts then LFP are a safe/carefree and well proportioned batt type to employ.
 
I don't know if this is apples to oranges but..

For one season I strictly used lithium AA and AAA batteries on all the flashlights etc on my boat. No discernible difference in battery life.

Alkaline batteries are supposed to be put in regular trash, I suppose they eventually end up buried in landfills. Lithium batteries are not . Don't know what I am supposed to do with the dead ones.

My daughter lives in Minneapolis. The city used to pick up all small batteries with the trash and recycle them. We would save ours and take them to her occasionally. They no longer provide this service.

Sorry if i hijacked this thread.

pete
 
I don't know if this is apples to oranges but..

For one season I strictly used lithium AA and AAA batteries on all the flashlights etc on my boat. No discernible difference in battery life.

Alkaline batteries are supposed to be put in regular trash, I suppose they eventually end up buried in landfills. Lithium batteries are not . Don't know what I am supposed to do with the dead ones.

My daughter lives in Minneapolis. The city used to pick up all small batteries with the trash and recycle them. We would save ours and take them to her occasionally. They no longer provide this service.

Sorry if i hijacked this thread.

pete


No hijack, and a good example of yet another form of lithium battery, specifically the non-rechargable type. They are different yet again from all the re-chargable types. But because they are not rechargable, they would never be considered for a boat's house bank. Also, non of their life-span characteristics are transferable, so I wouldn't draw any conclusions about LFP based on disposable Lithium cells. BTW, the disposable cells are probably the most dangerous of all. If I recall correctly, they are the only form of lithium battery that contains actual lithium metal which burns uncontrollably when it comes into contact with water. The good thing is that you never have more than a couple of them together, unlike much larger battery system where you would have hundreds or even thousands of them all packed together. Talk about a cascading fire hazard......
 
Good post Peter. The batteries in question appear to be part of an overall system provided by Enerdrive out of Brisbane. The batteries are most likely LFP. As pretty well stated on TF by many users, the virtues of LFPs are well known with hundreds if not thousands of success stories.

For the OP, the question may well be geared more to the overall installation which could include the total Enerdrive system - batteries,inverter, charger and battery and system monitoring. I know little of Enerdrive but do know that the LFP business as it applies to mobile, floating and land based systems has had its fair share of corporate hiccups.

Hopefully Enerdrive is robust with good support in the OP's cruising grounds. When buying a new boat with an overall LFP system all questions should be fair game. No different than assessing engines, hull integrity and overall condition.


All good points. I guess part of what I was trying to say, and you have zeroed in on it much better, is I would do diligence on them just like any other system in a boat. But I wouldn't get in a tizzy because they are LFP, assuming they are. That alone I would consider a plus, not a minus.
 
I followed some Li battery applications in RVs. What I remember is that they did not come close to the cycles being advertised before losing significant capacity. The culprit seemed to be excessive heat. The battery compartment was not sufficiently vented and reached 120 deg F during the summer.

On a boat I'd make sure you do not place the battery bank in the engine room and provide sufficient venting/ air flow. There is a reason why Tesla actively cools and heats their batteries.
 
And I'm sure Delfin will jump in shortly. He's been using them on his boat, and for longer than me. Unless something big has changed, he's a huge fan too.
 
Great contributions, thanks. Here is the link to Enerdrive: https://enerdrive.com.au/lithium-battery-installation-systems/
If they are 10 yrs old, with a history of draining over a period, I`ll assume them suspect unless they prove ok on testing. Is it remarkable if anyone was fitting lithiums 10 yrs ago?
It`s a 10 yr old boat with under 750 hours on the Yanmar 315hp mains. Current owner has never showered on the boat, used it as a dayboat, says selling due to not using it. Bet he`s never run the aircon either. Boat has a "C Zone" electrical systems management system.
 
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At least now, all their batteries appear to be LFP, which by the way is short-hand for LiFePO4 which is full name for the chemistry. So that's a good start.


Some sort of capacity test is a good idea. If they are within 80% of nameplate capacity, I would probably declare success and use them.
 
This from Jeff Cote of Pacific Yacht Systems:

Lithium vs. Firefly Carbon Foam Batteries?

Question:
We currently have a 440Ah lead/acid house battery bank and a lead/acid starting battery that I want to upgrade to a more maintenance free battery type. Can you provide an opinion regarding the advantages/disadvantages of lithium ion vs carbon foam batteries in the marine setting? Since I am looking long term and planning to keep the boat, a higher initial cost is acceptable if the benefits are significant. - Pete

Answer:
I’d suggest the Lithium makes sense over Firefly if:

You need a battery bank that offers the most energy density for available volume and weight
You plan on using your battery bank regularly, i.e. thousands of cycles, for instance cruising offshore and cycling the batteries every day for 5-7 years
You are OK with the costs of upgrading your alternator, charger, solar controllers to lithium compatible devices
All those benefits are potentially offset by large upfront capital costs. Otherwise, I’d go with Firefly AGM. – Jeff


And another source:

Firefly Batteries: New Testing Reveals...
Category: Battery
new-testing-reveals-photo-640x427
I've always wondered whether Firefly batteries really do charge faster than conventional lead-acid batteries, as the Firefly people tell us. There is oodles of information on the discharge characteristics in the Firefly blurb, but nothing much regarding this high-speed charging phenomenon. Well, now I know.

But let's first look at Lithium batteries because nothing can currently compare to their spectacular charging capabilities in their many forms.

These types of battery have the ability to suck in practically whatever amps the charging source can deliver, all the way through from start to finish, and such is their thirst that we really don't yet have charging sources powerful enough to satisfy their craving. Lithium batteries have an addiction: they're hooked on amps and all they want is more!

Those familiar with the now-standard 3-step Lead Acid charging routine of Bulk, Acceptance, and then Float stages will appreciate that, because Lithium batteries do not have to suffer through the painfully long, drawn-out Acceptance stage, they will recharge in a fraction of the time of Lead Acid equivalents.

Because of this, charging sources for Lithium batteries, especially alternators, need to be specially adapted and/or controlled in anticipation of them being forced to deliver their maximum amps output for the entire length of time of the charge. Ignoring this little nugget may well end in a debilitating melt-down, and I mean that quite literally!

Apart from the zippy charging, lithium battery systems will also last several thousands of cycles longer than conventional Lead Acid batteries, do not have to be fully recharged each cycle, can be discharged to deep levels, and are about half the weight. But they are also expensive, complicated, can't be charged when temperatures are at/below freezing, and for some they carry a scarily high fear-factor.

But wait a minute .... the Firefly is not a conventional Lead Acid battery, so let's compare its attributes to Lithium.

Thanks to the unique carbon-foam plate structure and other innovations, the Firefly Lead Acid AGM battery:

Will last several thousands of cycles longer than conventional Lead Acid batteries, and close to Lithium's lifespan.

Just like Lithium, does not have to be fully recharged each cycle thanks to Partial State Of Charge (PSOC) technology that prevents sulfation.
Can be safely discharged to 70%-90% Depth Of Discharge without loss of performance, same as with Lithium.
Can be charged at up to 250 amps in temperatures down to as low as -4°F. Eat that Lithium!
Charges faster than conventional Lead Acid batteries ... or so we are told .....
So to prove point "5", I tested the recharge time of a Firefly against a new, high-quality, marine AGM battery with about 10% less amp-hour capacity. Both batteries were discharged down to 12.4 volts and then recharged with a 50 amp power supply at their recommended Acceptance charge voltages: 14.4v for the Firefly, 14,7v for Brand X.

What is immediately evident is that the Firefly spent about 70% more time ingesting the maximum available 50 amps in the Bulk stage than Brand X, far longer than the size disparity of the batteries might suggest. And then, in the Acceptance stage, the Firefly's current intake dropped at a faster rate overall than Brand X, dropping to the full-charge criteria of 1.5 amps in just over three hours of total charge time.

In contrast, the smaller Brand X AGM was dithering at around 2.3 amps after five hours, at which point I gave up and headed home to a lukewarm dinner and scowling wife.

northstar vs firefly2jpg

Although the test was intended to be merely a preliminary, fact-finding exercise, the results have more than satisfied my skeptical curiosity. The graph shows just how differently and how much faster the Firefly charged than the Brand X battery, and although it would be nice to test a Firefly against an identically sized Brand X, I don't think it would reveal anything radically different to what these results tell us.

So there you have it. The Firefly showed to have charged at a faster rate than a smaller capacity AGM battery. That, coupled with the fact that there is no need for it to be fully recharged each cycle, makes the Firefly Oasis Gp31 the closest thing to Lithium in charging performance, and has established itself as the gold standard of Lead Acid AGM batteries.
 
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rsn48,,

Would you post the links to those articles. Jeff Cote's I have seen but would still be worthwhile seeing again.


THe other about the Fireflys would be very usefull for many of us but would also like to see any other info available and seems to be good info that I have not run across..

I went through this several years ago and stuck with my Gels because lithium was, for me, out of the question. The Fireflys, although I knew about them, were simply to new with too little information.

By the time my next new battery cycle comes up I may no longer care but one never knows and I do like to keep abreast of this kind of stuff.
 
My son and girlfriend are at my home for Xmas so this is a post on the fly for information about Jeff Cote, its an hour long battery lecture by Jeff, and he discusses his business. This is a good boat battery tutorial:

 
https://oceanplanetenergy.com/

Lots of good info on Li and carbon foam batteries.
Interesting reading!

I just don't know how I will ever overcome the inadequate feeling of not having a computer chip on every cell in my battery bank and the command computer to inform me that my bank feels threatened, needs a safe space, and a puppy (emotional support animal).

The Li technology looks really amazing, but not as much as the price. $6K to $9k from Lithionics would be hard to justify. $2k for Firefly batteries is certainly more doable. Last time I looked around $800 replaced my Trojan T-105s. If I get 5 to 7 years out of my first set, it will be a simple choice with my cruising style (motoring every day, other day, or third day).

The Fireflies have a decent warranty (2 years exchange and 4 years prorated after that). Lithionics doesn't seem to feature how they stand behind their products on the website.

Then again, 2 or 3 years from now battery technology and pricing may be totally different. I'll wait.

Ted
 
Alkaline batteries are supposed to be put in regular trash, I suppose they eventually end up buried in landfills. Lithium batteries are not . Don't know what I am supposed to do with the dead ones.

Since you're in America take them to Home Depot or Lowe's. They all have recycle bins specifically for batteries.
 
I watched entire "Choose the best battery for your boat" video with Jeff Cote.

Good video - I have this question:

Per month, how much percent of their charge-level do you feel an isolated Flooded Lead Acid battery loses?

Jeff mentioned that Flooded Lead Acid batteries lose 15% of their charge per month. I've previously heard that 5% is their loss.
 
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I got the text below from an article I will link:

For deep cycle applications however the Sealed Lead Acid type of battery can be a great deal more expensive than a comparable Flooded Lead Acid battery. However, there are times when a sealed battery will better meet your needs than a flooded battery would. Particularly marine applications where stability isn't always a given, and ventilated spaces are hard to come by are often well tailored to a sealed lead acid battery. One other advantage that AGM and Gel batteries have over flooded types is the low self discharge rate. Where a Flooded battery will lose about 13% of its charge in a month, a Gel or AGM will lose 1% -3%.

Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
 
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It would seem the FLA "monthly loss" is a non issue for those of us that keep the batteries on a charger..
 
This summer i replaced 4 8Ds with fire flies. I had to convert two internally regulated alterntors to externally controlled. I used two balmar 615s to regulate each alterntor and balmar center fielder to coordinate the 615s. Instead of having separate banks for the engines and house, i tired them together. I have two generators, each with its own start battery, so dont with about nor being able to start the engines.

After traveling down the ICW, from Virginia to Stuart, Fl, i can report that I am happy with the result. However, the Balmar smart gauge does not seem to work either these batteries. I think the reason is that these batteries use an algorithm to determine state of charge from the voltage. Over time the gauge gets more accurate - it learns. But fire flies maintain voltage even with the batteries significantly discharged.

I also worry about engine room temps. While running, it is not so much of a problem, but at the halt, the engine room blowers don't keep up with the heat from the engines.

In the end, I hope these will be the last batteries I have to buy.

Btw, used 3 L-15s (4 volts each) for the house bank and two group 31s for each start battery.

Gordon
 
Since you are kind of local to Vancouver, call Pacific Yacht System (Jeff Cote), they will give you Jeff's email address and you can ask him your question.
 
Charge loss of idle lead acid batteries is temperature dependent. The higher the temperature that faster they lose charge. My batteries sit idle for six months each year, but only lose 20-25% of charge during that time because they are cold (currently about 20F).
 
Charge loss of idle lead acid batteries is temperature dependent. The higher the temperature that faster they lose charge. My batteries sit idle for six months each year, but only lose 20-25% of charge during that time because they are cold (currently about 20F).

That my Maine Coast friend is how I see it too!

Thank you for posting your FLA battery experience. Seems to me that the 15% monthly discharge Jeff Cote mentions on video must happen because of batts being in very warm climate. I spent years in Camden, Rockport, Rockland area of Maine. Also years in Denver and a decade in upper Sierra Nevada. I found that each of those cold winter climates would make [even a fully charged] battery power sluggish during really cold [-15 F and lower] degree days; but, would allow the FLA batts to set dormant for several months without too much overall loss.

Our boat often sits for 2 to 3 months between use. Once did a 6 month sit. I do not keep boat hooked to shore power and where batts sit I doubt it ever gets above 70 F even in summer. In winter probably stays at 50 F. I do completely isolate all batts when leaving boat. Even in the one 6 month sitting stint I found [by checking with a multimeter] that batts had only lost about 35%. If the 15% monthly loss rule was applied then in 6 months those batts would experience close to 90% reserve power reduction. That's a kill-zone for FLA batts.
 
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