lithium ?

[lipets]

interesting page LA



https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-d...3FnpytGRkSRpcckWu42UW1dGXQG6cdjXvaWxECI8UgbNg


interesting about 105-RE

 

[SeaMaster101]

If I want to type a letter, I use to take the typewriter out and bang on the keyboard... now I take my laptop. More expensive but light and convenient!
Boaters are strange tribe. They will try hold the progress for ever. It was the same case with electronics in the 90ties. The comments were: “why would I need that? I’m cruising during the day in familiar waters and I’ve been doing it for many years. All I need is my old radar”
Despite I just spent a fortune on 3 x 300Ah lithium battery to replace my 18 golf cards. They are on their way to my boat now and I will make a video when we receive them.
I have one real issue now. How the heck I’m going to balance my boat as the lead acid batteries are mostly on the starboard side....

 

[Brooksie]

I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-e...ZeigIYENlzo5NFMZNTT8qjWRQ8f6jxCGE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.

 

[SeaMaster101]

I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-e...ZeigIYENlzo5NFMZNTT8qjWRQ8f6jxCGE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.

You shouldn’t board aircraft then either.... there are plenty of lithium batteries brought on board in the main cabin by the passengers.
Don’t get into EV vehicle either. These have huge battery banks!
Lead acid batteries produce hydrogen. Proper mixture with air can make Big Bang!
Stay at home. It’s safer there.

 

[lipets]

I have one real issue now. How the heck I’m going to balance my boat as the lead acid batteries are mostly on the starboard side....

EZ leave the dead wet cells to balance, then pay the fuel to cart them

 

[DDW]

I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-e...ZeigIYENlzo5NFMZNTT8qjWRQ8f6jxCGE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.

Due to the general ignorance surrounding different lithium chemistries, this is a common fear. LiCoO2 are very different batteries compared to LiFePo4. The thermal runaway characteristics of the latter are much close to LA batteries than the they are to the former.

 

[DCDC]

Interesting thread as I have been evaluating a LiFePO4 bank for several weeks.

The boat has an (overly)complex, but flexible, DC system. In fact I just wrote, and then deleted, a lengthy description - too much detail for casual reading. Cutting to the bottom line:

We need new house batteries. During our last cruise (5 months, Bahamas, mostly at anchor) the batteries became increasingly resistant to charge rates and quickly discharged to lower voltages.

I would replace the house batteries (5 x 250 AH AGM's) with 3 x Victron 200 AH LiFePO4's. These are the easiest fit from size/weight/capacity viewpoints.

What I'm struggling with is the need for new charging and control equipment. Vendors, of course, recommend an entirely new system. I would like to use what I have, otherwise it becomes significantly more expensive.

> MS2812 Magnum Charger/Inverter with battery monitor kit and ME-RC remote controller. Charges at maximum 125 amps.
> A 160 amp Leece-Neville alternator with 3-stage Heart regulator.

I am considering:

> An external battery management system (probably Victron BMS 12/200) as the Victron batteries do not have an internal BMS.
> Upgrade the Magnum ME-RC controller to the ME-ARC controller as it has significantly more options to control the charger.
> A new alternator regulator which could fit the LiFePO4 charge profile and unload the alternator if it overheated.

Even these upgrades will probably cost ~$1K but would save the cost of a new inverter/charger, controller and shunt.

We will also evaluate PV panels after the battery system is implemented.

Any experience or thoughts are appreciated.

 

[lipets]

I saw a video saying you don't need a BMS on those


look thru here the kid is pretty sharp


https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/diy-solar-blueprints.html




But still think Golf cart batteries are better option.

8 will give you 900 amps


get the T-105RE made for solar they have carbon $1100, will last 8 years on solar. THey have a higher capity for # of discharges

 

[PasadenaPhil]

I have been toying with the idea of swapping out my two big house batteries for big Lithium as well. However my wet batteries are twice the size of lithium. So four battle born batteries will fit in. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Delfin]

Interesting thread as I have been evaluating a LiFePO4 bank for several weeks.

The boat has an (overly)complex, but flexible, DC system. In fact I just wrote, and then deleted, a lengthy description - too much detail for casual reading. Cutting to the bottom line:

We need new house batteries. During our last cruise (5 months, Bahamas, mostly at anchor) the batteries became increasingly resistant to charge rates and quickly discharged to lower voltages.

I would replace the house batteries (5 x 250 AH AGM's) with 3 x Victron 200 AH LiFePO4's. These are the easiest fit from size/weight/capacity viewpoints.

What I'm struggling with is the need for new charging and control equipment. Vendors, of course, recommend an entirely new system. I would like to use what I have, otherwise it becomes significantly more expensive.

> MS2812 Magnum Charger/Inverter with battery monitor kit and ME-RC remote controller. Charges at maximum 125 amps.
> A 160 amp Leece-Neville alternator with 3-stage Heart regulator.

I am considering:

> An external battery management system (probably Victron BMS 12/200) as the Victron batteries do not have an internal BMS.
> Upgrade the Magnum ME-RC controller to the ME-ARC controller as it has significantly more options to control the charger.
> A new alternator regulator which could fit the LiFePO4 charge profile and unload the alternator if it overheated.

Even these upgrades will probably cost ~$1K but would save the cost of a new inverter/charger, controller and shunt.

We will also evaluate PV panels after the battery system is implemented.

Any experience or thoughts are appreciated.

Your use case sounds pretty much identical to mine. Three years ago I swapped 1280 Ah of AGM NorthStar for 600 Ah of LiFePO4 from Lithionics with their external BMS, all 24 v. I had a Trace 4000 with 130 amp charger, an Ample Power 160 amp alternator, Balmar MC 624 voltage regulator and the genset. In addition, I had a 200 amp LA starter bank and two rotary on/off switches for the LFP house bank and starter bank. I changed nothing in the charging equipment, because there was no need, although I did add three 30 Amp Sterling chargers to allow me to recharge from the genset/inverter charger/Sterlings at 200 amps, or 300 amps if I run both engine and genset.

Concerns about safety of LFP vs. LA are, IMO, basically horse pucky due to confusing LiFePO4 with other chemistries, and the anguish over charging equipment perplexes me as I find it easier to maintain the LFP bank than the one it replaced. If I use 300 amps and recharge at 200, in 90 minutes the batteries are full. Use, re-charge, rinse and repeat. Simple.

Managing the bank boils down to three scenarios:

1. At anchor for days: BMS on, starter bank switched off. Consume 450 Ah or so, then fire up the genset to recharge at 200 amps. Make water, do laundry, etc. to keep my oversized genset loaded up a bit.
2. At the dock, connected to shore power: BMS off, starter bank on. Float charge current directed to the LA starter bank, with the LFP bank stored off line at around 50% SoC.
3. Underway, LFP bank at less than full charge: BMS on, Starter bank switched off. Re-charge with alternator, and when acceptance rate of the LFP bank drops to <3% or so, switch starter bank on, Starter bank on, BMS off.

The MC624 is set for a conservative charge profile for LFP, which works just fine for the LA starter bank. The Sterlings and the Trace charger are set for 29.2 volts bulk with absorption time however long it takes for the charge acceptance rate to drop to <3%, which happens about 3 minutes after the CAR stops to drop. I can predict within 5 minutes of that drop starting to happen since the acceptance rate of LFP is basically flat until full, at least with the Lithionics batteries. I monitor that acceptance rate with a Link 20 monitor that displays amps in and out. I've posted the image below before, but it shows how flat the charge curve is, and how quickly it drops.

I chose Lithionics because all they do is Lithium batteries, buy in bulk, then match the impedance of cells before assembling them into packs, and their BMS is reputably the best there is. Mine are 2 x 300 amps @ 24 vdc each.

Hope that helps.

 

[TDunn]

One consideration for lithium iron phosphate batteries is charging with your alternator. Lithium batteries can accept very high charge currents. If the batteries are low they can and will pull your alternator up to 100% output unless you have an external regulator that lets you limit charging current. This can be an issue if the engine speed is low since the alternator will not be adequately cooled and can burn up. The solution is simple - install an alternator with a sophisticated external regulator that can limit current, or use a DC to DC converter fed by the alternator for the charging. The converter will limit charging amps to a safe level for your standard alternator. Victron has a new video in this issue which is worth watching. Suitable converters are sold as DC to DC battery chargers.

 

[Delfin]

One consideration for lithium iron phosphate batteries is charging with your alternator. Lithium batteries can accept very high charge currents. If the batteries are low they can and will pull your alternator up to 100% output unless you have an external regulator that lets you limit charging current. This can be an issue if the engine speed is low since the alternator will not be adequately cooled and can burn up. The solution is simple - install an alternator with a sophisticated external regulator that can limit current, or use a DC to DC converter fed by the alternator for the charging. The converter will limit charging amps to a safe level for your standard alternator. Victron has a new video in this issue which is worth watching. Suitable converters are sold as DC to DC battery chargers.

They pull the same amount of current through about 98% of their capacity, but your point is well taken. A Balmar MC6xx regulator allows you to derate the output of the alternator. Mine is set to around 70% of maximum.

 

[DDW]

If I were changing over and particularly if buying a new external regulator for the alternator, I'd heavily consider a Wakespeed 500 instead of the Balmar. The Balmar 6xx can't really tell when the batteries are full, it just guesses and is easily confused. The Wakespeed is the next generation as it can measure current, not just voltage.

 

[Delfin]

If I were changing over and particularly if buying a new external regulator for the alternator, I'd heavily consider a Wakespeed 500 instead of the Balmar. The Balmar 6xx can't really tell when the batteries are full, it just guesses and is easily confused. The Wakespeed is the next generation as it can measure current, not just voltage.

There's a lot to like about the Wakespeed, except for one fairly important lack of functionality. Unless I'm misreading the manual, because you use dip switches with set profiles, you have no control over bulk voltage. If the want something other than 13.8/27.6 v, you're out of luck. This regime is fine, most of the time, but if you don't have the ability to ramp that voltage up to the level balancing circuitry on the BMS kicks in, you may see a decline in capacity due to memory effects.

 

[DDW]

Dip switches only set the rough functionality. You need to hook the Wakespeed 500 up to your laptop, then you can set just about everything you could imagine and a few things you didn't. A large superset of the Balmar 6xx. There'd be no point (well not much point) in paying for the 500 without accessing that functionality. In addition, the Wakespeed will communicate directly with some BMS units over Canbus. The Wakespeed 100 is more rudimentary, and less capable than the Balmar IMO.

 

[Delfin]

Dip switches only set the rough functionality. You need to hook the Wakespeed 500 up to your laptop, then you can set just about everything you could imagine and a few things you didn't. A large superset of the Balmar 6xx. There'd be no point (well not much point) in paying for the 500 without accessing that functionality. In addition, the Wakespeed will communicate directly with some BMS units over Canbus. The Wakespeed 100 is more rudimentary, and less capable than the Balmar IMO.

Ah, thank you. I missed that external control functionality. Does look like a very good unit.

 

[DDW]

And, they are right over there in Oak Harbor if you have a question. Balmar has been bought and moved to Alabama, anybody that knows how the 6xx works (intimately) has left the company.

 

[Delfin]

And, they are right over there in Oak Harbor if you have a question. Balmar has been bought and moved to Alabama, anybody that knows how the 6xx works (intimately) has left the company.

Not everyone. Tom Postieri (sp?) is still in Arlington and always helpful, and I think Chris Witzgel also knows his product.

 

[stevemitchell]

I've got a draft article I hope to publish in the next week or two on a 6 month use cycle of the Wakespeed WS-500 regulator on dual engines along with my LiFePO4 bank + higher amperage alternators.

So far I can say I am very impressed with them, and have not found a better system for charging LiFePO4 or higher amperage current batteries. They are infinitely configurable (both a blessing and a curse) and use CANbus to communicate between eachother to ensure they are both working equally well. That and the fact that they also use a shunt to monitor the actual amperage going in/out of the bank make this a pretty similar charging system to an actual AC charger/inverter.

 

[DCDC]

Thanks for all the input and ideas.

 

[RickyD]

Something in the 1400ah @ 24V range. It's probably serious overkill, but without a solid understanding of the electric loads, I'd rather err on the side of too much rather than too little. And that's nameplate rating, so figure 80-90% of that is usable.


Part of the uncertainty is because I haven't finalized what batteries I'm going to use, and they come if different quanta of capacity. Plus I'm leaning towards a redundant setup with two banks, so the capacity steps are pairs of batteries.. Several vendors sell ~300Ah batteries, so a bank of 4 would be 1200 ah, and 6 would jump up to 1800ah.[/QUOTE

What about cranking power with LiPo? I would like to replace my 4 LA 8Ds and pick up more amp hours. With my two refrigerator freezers, one of which draws 6.5 amps at 120v so I guess 70 amps at 12v through the inverter, I draw down my bank overnight and have to run the genset for hours to charge back up in the morning and again in the evening. My current set up is the start battery and two other 8Ds are the house bank, and the other 8D is the start for the port engine. This way I always have a start battery. I also have a battery combiner. Can I use LiPo for starting my 3208 Cats?

 

[FF]

"With my two refrigerator freezers, one of which draws 6.5 amps at 120v so I guess 70 amps at 12v through the inverter,"


Have you contemplated installing more efficient DC reefers?

 

[twistedtree]

Using LFP as a start battery might be problematic, so it should be carefully researched.

The good news is that they can deliver high current, but you don’t want to do it for anything other than a short burst. But that matches the load for starting an engine- usually. Typical max draw limits are 3C to 5C. You’d have to check your starter specs, but I think 800-1000A draw could be expected. At 3-5C, you are looking at a 200-300ah battery.

That said, most drop ins have built in current limiting and will disconnect if current exceeds specs. The catch is that those specs are usually based on continuous current, not short term burst current. So the disconnect is likely at around 1C, so 200A on a 200ah battery. With this, there is a distinct risk that the battery will shut down when you start cranking.