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Old 10-20-2019, 12:11 PM   #21
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My cell phone is a year and a half old and its showing 85% of its original capacity and its fully charged. EV proponents (having had one, a BMW, I’m not one) say 600 charges before they are worn out. Also, you need a special charger or a solar setup for a boat battery system. I think there is a lot of voodoo and misinformation about Lithium batteries still and I would need to be convinced to change from my gang of FLAs.
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:24 PM   #22
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I recently cruised the net looking at lithium batteries, and was drawn to the ones used in the new Nordhavn 41. Do not remember the brand right now.

Then I went to that manufacturers web site and saw that a 400 amp hour bank would cost something like $5,000.

That wasn’t the scary part. The scary part to me was the sophisticated electronics and the very propritary equipment needed to protect them from what appeared to me to be a risk of burning up.

Then I thought of my 8 year old 800+ amp hour bank of L16HC batteries coupled to my Xantrex inverter/charger, and backed up by a spare charger that cost me another $350.

Replacing that bank will cost me something less than $1500 depending on the brand I choose. Yes I will need to actually look at them every couple of months and add water to them if full time cruising on the hook. Adding water takes me all of less than a hour, and it gives me an excuse to look around the lazarette a bit at the same time.

In terms of reliability, I have 8 years on my house bank right now. It will be soon replaced. If while cruising in a remote area I need to replace a cell, then I believe that I will be able to find more L16 batteries as they are pretty common in the industrial world.

I am ALL for technology on my boat, but to me that technology needs to make operational sense. To me adding complexity to save a bit of weight and space is not something I am interested in doing. FLA batteries are a mature technology in a very high risk area.

For now, I’ll stick with my FLA bank. Other technologies will mature over time and become viable, but in my opinion they still have a ways to go.

For some yes, but not for me.
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Old 10-20-2019, 01:44 PM   #23
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I ended up converting my FLA house bank to LiFePO4 recently for a few reasons, all of which have been mentioned. Those include: space, weight, ease of maintenance, and most importantly to me, charge time.

I've written the whole thing up at Victron + Wakespeed + Battle Born power system and still have a follow on article left to finish on the Wakespeed stuff alone.

I don't expect these batteries to last 10+ years, but I do expect 2000+ cycles out of them without much degradation. That is still a long time for my use case - I would need to have fairly deep discharges for 200 days out of each year before I reached 2000, and that would be 10 years total.

I've had LiFePO4 and Firefly battery banks before on a different boat (see LiFePO4 power design, installing and using the LiFePO4 bank, and Firefly power system upgrade) and had plenty of time to love/hate parts of those systems too.

The Fireflys were great, but they only come in two sizes which limits many installs, including the boat I have now. They are even more sensitive IMHO to charging profiles than most drop-in LiFePO4 banks, so you have to make sure you have updated equipment everywhere, including generator/alternator/etc. They also were hard to get for a couple of years, and their manufacturing is in a different place than the original sets I had.

The standard LiFePO4 solutions from Victron and other major manufacturers can be quite a pain when it comes to all of the extra equipment you have to have around them, which you can see a part of in the article on my previous sailboat LiFePO4 setup. The sheer complexity of devices involved just for power really bothered me for long term use, let alone troubleshooting.

The drop in stuff I'm using now doesn't require that, but it has its own pros/cons, just like FLA, Firefly, or anything else. Reduced overall charge rates per battery, BMS cutoff issues, etc.

For me, it was worth spending the extra money to have the charging rate capabilities I have now. I can charge my entire house bank in 2 hours or less on engine - no generator required. I can go 2+ days on battery now, versus barely one with FLA, without charging at all. I also do not have to worry anywhere near as much about FLA discharge levels, water/electrolyte, and power in general, as we have a more robust system in my opinion.

I have talked to so many people about the benefits and problems with varying types of batteries and power systems - there is no real right answer or major reason to consider LiFePO4 over Firefly over FLA. It is a mix of everything from budget, space, usage, goals, and expertise.
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Old 10-20-2019, 02:54 PM   #24
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I ended up converting my FLA house bank to LiFePO4 recently for a few reasons, all of which have been mentioned. Those include: space, weight, ease of maintenance, and most importantly to me, charge time.

I've written the whole thing up at Victron + Wakespeed + Battle Born power system and still have a follow on article left to finish on the Wakespeed stuff alone.

I don't expect these batteries to last 10+ years, but I do expect 2000+ cycles out of them without much degradation. That is still a long time for my use case - I would need to have fairly deep discharges for 200 days out of each year before I reached 2000, and that would be 10 years total.


I've had LiFePO4 and Firefly battery banks before on a different boat (see LiFePO4 power design, installing and using the LiFePO4 bank, and Firefly power system upgrade) and had plenty of time to love/hate parts of those systems too.

The Fireflys were great, but they only come in two sizes which limits many installs, including the boat I have now. They are even more sensitive IMHO to charging profiles than most drop-in LiFePO4 banks, so you have to make sure you have updated equipment everywhere, including generator/alternator/etc. They also were hard to get for a couple of years, and their manufacturing is in a different place than the original sets I had.

The standard LiFePO4 solutions from Victron and other major manufacturers can be quite a pain when it comes to all of the extra equipment you have to have around them, which you can see a part of in the article on my previous sailboat LiFePO4 setup. The sheer complexity of devices involved just for power really bothered me for long term use, let alone troubleshooting.

The drop in stuff I'm using now doesn't require that, but it has its own pros/cons, just like FLA, Firefly, or anything else. Reduced overall charge rates per battery, BMS cutoff issues, etc.

For me, it was worth spending the extra money to have the charging rate capabilities I have now. I can charge my entire house bank in 2 hours or less on engine - no generator required. I can go 2+ days on battery now, versus barely one with FLA, without charging at all. I also do not have to worry anywhere near as much about FLA discharge levels, water/electrolyte, and power in general, as we have a more robust system in my opinion.

I have talked to so many people about the benefits and problems with varying types of batteries and power systems - there is no real right answer or major reason to consider LiFePO4 over Firefly over FLA. It is a mix of everything from budget, space, usage, goals, and expertise.
After installing 900 amp hours of fire fly oasis batteries, I am curious about what you term to be their sensitivity to charge profile. I do not find them to be any more sensitive in set up then a normal AGM. Also, as you learned, they do charge faster than a normal AGM, and you can run them all the way to zero, without harming them. They advertise 4500 Cycles if only discharge to 50%. I reckon I will never have to buy batteries for this boat again.

About your lithium batteries, are they installed in the engine room. I am a bit concerned about the heat in my engine room and the coal location of my battery banks. My understanding was that lithium is even more sensitive to heat. Has that been your experience?
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:12 PM   #25
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After installing 900 amp hours of fire fly oasis batteries, I am curious about what you term to be their sensitivity to charge profile. I do not find them to be any more sensitive in set up then a normal AGM. Also, as you learned, they do charge faster than a normal AGM, and you can run them all the way to zero, without harming them. They advertise 4500 Cycles if only discharge to 50%. I reckon I will never have to buy batteries for this boat again.

About your lithium batteries, are they installed in the engine room. I am a bit concerned about the heat in my engine room and the coal location of my battery banks. My understanding was that lithium is even more sensitive to heat. Has that been your experience?
Hmmm, I remember the charge profile for Firefly batteries being more restrictive than, say, a Lifeline AGM battery. Has that changed?

I also do not remember that it is OK to discharge them to 0% without harming them - in fact, I believe that reduces the cycle life. Perhaps you meant to say that you could discharge a Firefly and not have it completely stop working vs. a traditional LiFePO4 without a BMS, in which case you'd most likely have a broken LiFePO4 battery.

Keep in mind the batteries I'm using have BMS's on them that prevent that, and the previous system had a BMS and control circuitry to do that as well. Firefly batteries don't have this at all, and in fact, I've seen more dead Firefly or AGM batteries because owners discharge them repeatedly to 0% accidentally. It makes the case for adding some of the same BMS/control circuitry that LiFePO4 banks have to a AGM or Firefly bank to make sure this wouldn't happen.

LiFePO4 is sensitive to heat just like any other battery. The ones I use now will trip the BMS and shut down if they are 135F or hotter. Victron LiFePO4 batteries have a max operating temp of 122F. Lifeline AGM says 160F max, and Firefly says 104F! Quite surprised at that low number for Firefly - I don't remember that from the original sets I installed.

My engine room sits at about 90-100F depending on the time of year, so I have not seen any issues. In terms of longevity, I'm sure there is an impact, but only time will tell.
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:17 PM   #26
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I think you can discharge to 20% not zero
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:26 PM   #27
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Steve you are right, continual discharge to dead, and back will shorten their life, but won’t kill them.

I have a magnum charger and had no problems setting the charge profile as per their recommendation. I will know on a month as we head to Florida about battery sensitivity to heat. As I read their literature, I remember seeing degradation of charge, but my temperature regulated chargers account for that.

I hope.

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Old 10-20-2019, 03:28 PM   #28
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This from the Schwab site:

Firefly Oasis Highlights: Depths of Discharge to 80%-100% of rated capacity without any loss of performance. Superior Life Cycle – capable of 3X the number of deep discharge cycles than that of other lead acid batteries. Strong Performance in Extreme Cold and Heat– performance range is -20° C to 50° C.
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:48 PM   #29
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This from the Schwab site:

Firefly Oasis Highlights: Depths of Discharge to 80%-100% of rated capacity without any loss of performance. Superior Life Cycle – capable of 3X the number of deep discharge cycles than that of other lead acid batteries. Strong Performance in Extreme Cold and Heat– performance range is -20° C to 50° C.
Interesting, from their main page at https://oceanplanetenergy.com/advanc...asis-group-31/

-20°C to 50°C

(-4°F to 104°F)

So not sure if they just don't know how to convert C to F, or which one is right!
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Old 10-20-2019, 06:35 PM   #30
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If you upgrade from say 4 12V wet cell to 100Ah lithium would you need 2 Lipo due to the lower discharge to 20% rather than wet having 50%
Yes. With 1/3rd the time to recharge compared to LA, 4 - 8 times the lifespan and higher voltage throughout the discharge cycle. Whether this is worth the extra cost depends on your cruising style and how much you like listening to and maintaining your genset.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:31 PM   #31
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interesting page LA



https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-de...XvaWxECI8UgbNg


interesting about 105-RE
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:01 PM   #32
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If I want to type a letter, I use to take the typewriter out and bang on the keyboard... now I take my laptop. More expensive but light and convenient!
Boaters are strange tribe. They will try hold the progress for ever. It was the same case with electronics in the 90ties. The comments were: “why would I need that? I’m cruising during the day in familiar waters and I’ve been doing it for many years. All I need is my old radar”
Despite I just spent a fortune on 3 x 300Ah lithium battery to replace my 18 golf cards. They are on their way to my boat now and I will make a video when we receive them.
I have one real issue now. How the heck I’m going to balance my boat as the lead acid batteries are mostly on the starboard side....
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:25 PM   #33
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I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-ex...GE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:50 PM   #34
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I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-ex...GE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.
You shouldn’t board aircraft then either.... there are plenty of lithium batteries brought on board in the main cabin by the passengers.
Don’t get into EV vehicle either. These have huge battery banks!
Lead acid batteries produce hydrogen. Proper mixture with air can make Big Bang!
Stay at home. It’s safer there.
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Old 10-25-2019, 03:42 PM   #35
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I have one real issue now. How the heck I’m going to balance my boat as the lead acid batteries are mostly on the starboard side....

EZ leave the dead wet cells to balance, then pay the fuel to cart them
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Old 10-25-2019, 03:58 PM   #36
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I wouldn't knowingly go aboard a vessel with Li batteries. These systems are not ready for prime time no matter what salespeople say.
https://gcaptain.com/fire-and-gas-ex...GE9zMWOfRvN94E
A guy in the news FL, uninjured in an accident burned alive in his Tesla this week. Why take the risk on a boat?
I had occasion to take people off a burning boat once, electrical fire, the look on their faces will stay with me forever.
Due to the general ignorance surrounding different lithium chemistries, this is a common fear. LiCoO2 are very different batteries compared to LiFePo4. The thermal runaway characteristics of the latter are much close to LA batteries than the they are to the former.
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Old 10-25-2019, 04:46 PM   #37
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Interesting thread as I have been evaluating a LiFePO4 bank for several weeks.

The boat has an (overly)complex, but flexible, DC system. In fact I just wrote, and then deleted, a lengthy description - too much detail for casual reading. Cutting to the bottom line:

We need new house batteries. During our last cruise (5 months, Bahamas, mostly at anchor) the batteries became increasingly resistant to charge rates and quickly discharged to lower voltages.

I would replace the house batteries (5 x 250 AH AGM's) with 3 x Victron 200 AH LiFePO4's. These are the easiest fit from size/weight/capacity viewpoints.

What I'm struggling with is the need for new charging and control equipment. Vendors, of course, recommend an entirely new system. I would like to use what I have, otherwise it becomes significantly more expensive.

> MS2812 Magnum Charger/Inverter with battery monitor kit and ME-RC remote controller. Charges at maximum 125 amps.
> A 160 amp Leece-Neville alternator with 3-stage Heart regulator.

I am considering:

> An external battery management system (probably Victron BMS 12/200) as the Victron batteries do not have an internal BMS.
> Upgrade the Magnum ME-RC controller to the ME-ARC controller as it has significantly more options to control the charger.
> A new alternator regulator which could fit the LiFePO4 charge profile and unload the alternator if it overheated.

Even these upgrades will probably cost ~$1K but would save the cost of a new inverter/charger, controller and shunt.

We will also evaluate PV panels after the battery system is implemented.

Any experience or thoughts are appreciated.
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Old 10-25-2019, 05:10 PM   #38
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I saw a video saying you don't need a BMS on those


look thru here the kid is pretty sharp


https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/di...lueprints.html




But still think Golf cart batteries are better option.

8 will give you 900 amps


get the T-105RE made for solar they have carbon $1100, will last 8 years on solar. THey have a higher capity for # of discharges
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Old 10-25-2019, 05:11 PM   #39
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I have been toying with the idea of swapping out my two big house batteries for big Lithium as well. However my wet batteries are twice the size of lithium. So four battle born batteries will fit in. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 10-25-2019, 06:00 PM   #40
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Interesting thread as I have been evaluating a LiFePO4 bank for several weeks.

The boat has an (overly)complex, but flexible, DC system. In fact I just wrote, and then deleted, a lengthy description - too much detail for casual reading. Cutting to the bottom line:

We need new house batteries. During our last cruise (5 months, Bahamas, mostly at anchor) the batteries became increasingly resistant to charge rates and quickly discharged to lower voltages.

I would replace the house batteries (5 x 250 AH AGM's) with 3 x Victron 200 AH LiFePO4's. These are the easiest fit from size/weight/capacity viewpoints.

What I'm struggling with is the need for new charging and control equipment. Vendors, of course, recommend an entirely new system. I would like to use what I have, otherwise it becomes significantly more expensive.

> MS2812 Magnum Charger/Inverter with battery monitor kit and ME-RC remote controller. Charges at maximum 125 amps.
> A 160 amp Leece-Neville alternator with 3-stage Heart regulator.

I am considering:

> An external battery management system (probably Victron BMS 12/200) as the Victron batteries do not have an internal BMS.
> Upgrade the Magnum ME-RC controller to the ME-ARC controller as it has significantly more options to control the charger.
> A new alternator regulator which could fit the LiFePO4 charge profile and unload the alternator if it overheated.

Even these upgrades will probably cost ~$1K but would save the cost of a new inverter/charger, controller and shunt.

We will also evaluate PV panels after the battery system is implemented.

Any experience or thoughts are appreciated.
Your use case sounds pretty much identical to mine. Three years ago I swapped 1280 Ah of AGM NorthStar for 600 Ah of LiFePO4 from Lithionics with their external BMS, all 24 v. I had a Trace 4000 with 130 amp charger, an Ample Power 160 amp alternator, Balmar MC 624 voltage regulator and the genset. In addition, I had a 200 amp LA starter bank and two rotary on/off switches for the LFP house bank and starter bank. I changed nothing in the charging equipment, because there was no need, although I did add three 30 Amp Sterling chargers to allow me to recharge from the genset/inverter charger/Sterlings at 200 amps, or 300 amps if I run both engine and genset.

Concerns about safety of LFP vs. LA are, IMO, basically horse pucky due to confusing LiFePO4 with other chemistries, and the anguish over charging equipment perplexes me as I find it easier to maintain the LFP bank than the one it replaced. If I use 300 amps and recharge at 200, in 90 minutes the batteries are full. Use, re-charge, rinse and repeat. Simple.

Managing the bank boils down to three scenarios:

1. At anchor for days: BMS on, starter bank switched off. Consume 450 Ah or so, then fire up the genset to recharge at 200 amps. Make water, do laundry, etc. to keep my oversized genset loaded up a bit.
2. At the dock, connected to shore power: BMS off, starter bank on. Float charge current directed to the LA starter bank, with the LFP bank stored off line at around 50% SoC.
3. Underway, LFP bank at less than full charge: BMS on, Starter bank switched off. Re-charge with alternator, and when acceptance rate of the LFP bank drops to <3% or so, switch starter bank on, Starter bank on, BMS off.

The MC624 is set for a conservative charge profile for LFP, which works just fine for the LA starter bank. The Sterlings and the Trace charger are set for 29.2 volts bulk with absorption time however long it takes for the charge acceptance rate to drop to <3%, which happens about 3 minutes after the CAR stops to drop. I can predict within 5 minutes of that drop starting to happen since the acceptance rate of LFP is basically flat until full, at least with the Lithionics batteries. I monitor that acceptance rate with a Link 20 monitor that displays amps in and out. I've posted the image below before, but it shows how flat the charge curve is, and how quickly it drops.

I chose Lithionics because all they do is Lithium batteries, buy in bulk, then match the impedance of cells before assembling them into packs, and their BMS is reputably the best there is. Mine are 2 x 300 amps @ 24 vdc each.

Hope that helps.
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