Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 12-23-2012, 06:01 PM   #41
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
So I checked out the new Garmin Blue Chart Mobile and so far have not been motivated to get it.

User reviews are not always the most reliable means of judging a product since the comments are based on an individual's experience with the product and there is usually no way to know if this is an knowledgeable or experienced user or a fellow who has a tough time with a light switch. So I always take user reviews with a big grain of salt.

The user reviews for the Garmin app were split between those who liked the program and those who thought it was a waste of money or it had a long way to go before it would be worthwhile.

The people who liked it seemed to be most interested in its ability to interface with other Garmin products like dedicated plotters and such.

The people who didn't like it were mostly negative for two reasons. One, they didn't like the fact that in order to use it you have to buy $30 to $50 worth of charts and Garmin didn't tell them this up front. Two, some users felt the app was slow to use. One reviewer complained of the inability to mark one's position on a chart.

The charts themselves got high marks from some users for clarity although some felt the screen got too cluttered at certain zoom ranges.

Of course Navimatics is not free, either. IIRC it cost us about $25 to get the version covering the west coast from the Mexican border on up through all of Alaska.

The Navimatics charts for the PNW, BC, and SE Alaska seem excellent to me. Our only complaint is that the names of bodies of water do not appear until is one is zoomed WAY in which means you have to search around for them, sometimes for a long time. I recently e-mailed the head of the company asking that since the names of islands, harbors, etc. appeared at a fairly zoomed out scale why they can't do the same thing with the body of water names. He wrote back and thanked me for the input and said he's added it to the list of improvements for the next version. We'll see.

But since the Navimatics chart coverage seems so good for this area, as opposed to the issues Jeff mentioned with their ICW charts, I think we'll stick with the Navimatics product until we have a chance to learn more about the Garmin product.

And the Active Captain overlay with Navimatics is excellent and very user friendly. We used it most recently to learn about and then make reservations at a tiny marina on Whidbey Island.
__________________
Advertisement

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 04:23 PM   #42
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
How antiquated am I! I have an older Lowrance chart unit that has a very slow rotation cycle. The Navonics (sp) is a schedule 1 or something, it is not common anymore I know that. What I miss from my last boat which had a Interphase unit and really only use, is speed over ground, & "go to". neither are on this machine.
I am interested in the discussion of using an ipad with GPS. Sure enough, when I spoke with the very young sales rep, I, as usual, glazed over eyes and ears that don't comperhend the technical speak. Convinced that a 16 'gig'(?) will suffice. Yet, as I am android with my phone and home computer, it sounds like I am treading towards Apple with the ipad.
Simple inquire: Is there a android pad? Could I obtain a couple of suggestions on programs that will give me both 'speed over ground' and "Go To"? To, I'd like normal NOAA chart presentation, not the mickey mouse screen as the Interphase used.

Forgive me for being as far behind as it appears. Just a simple boater who still references paper charts, dividers, and compass rose spread bars.
Just want to see from where to there and how long.
A.M.Johnson
27 Marben pocket trawler
__________________

Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 04:50 PM   #43
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Just to clarify regarding chart apps for the iPad. There are two with very similar names.

The one we use and that my posts have been about is Navimatics. This is an excellent chart program and it will show and track the position of your boat on the charts but it is NOT a chart plotter. You can create ONE straight line course between two points and the application has a steering display to keep you on that course. But you cannot create or store multiple-leg courses.

The other app is Navionics. Navionics is a functioning chart plotter you can use for navigation. It is also more than twice as expensive as Navimatics and I don't know if the app price includes the charts it uses.

So if all you want is, in essence, an iPad version of charts (plus an Active Captain overlay) Navimatics will do the job for you.

If what you want is a full-up chart plotter for navigational use, Navionics is the program you'll want to check out.

Here are two screen shots from Navimatics. The first shows our track in Bellingham Bay from the 2 hour run we made yesterday to check out some newly installed electronics. The track line starts out in the bay because that's where I turned the iPad on. The other is a destination we frequent in the San Juan's. the colored squares are Active Captain data points.


Click image for larger version

Name:	image-1785848127.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	41.7 KB
ID:	15190



Click image for larger version

Name:	image-2515911881.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	48.0 KB
ID:	15191
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 05:03 PM   #44
Guru
 
Ocean Breeze NL's Avatar
 
City: Springdale, NL
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Ocean Breeze
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 85OA38
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
Forgive me for being as far behind as it appears. Just a simple boater who still references paper charts, dividers, and compass rose spread bars.
Just want to see from where to there and how long.
A.M.Johnson
27 Marben pocket trawler
Al not to worry there is a lot of stuff out there that makes us all feel falling behind. It wasn't so long ago a family near us gave a camera to their parents who never owned a camera before plus a trip to Florida for their anniversary. They gave the old fellow instructions on how to load the film and change it out when it wouldn't roll anymore. After two weeks away they returned home with 6 rolls of 36 filled so the family placed it in the developers to see some of the great scenery shots in Florida. Once they were developed every picture was the same i.e. the old fellows eye. Nobody never told him how to point the camera. Now the family gave them a digital and a trip back to Florida and all was well with the pictures although the misses didn't realize that all the pictures he took was T&A. The good thing was if he had a digital the first time they went, he would have been divorced for he took the same kind of shots the first time.

The best thing ( I would suggest ) for you to do is find someone who has an iPad and uses it for a Navigation back-up tool in Ketchikan. Marin and a few others wrote a lot of info here on the different programs used as well as there's lots on the internet not to mention the geeks that work in the various stores. It is hard to figure it all out unless you have someone who has one and can show you 'hands on' just how to get the best use out of it.
__________________
Elwin
Ocean Breeze NL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 05:06 PM   #45
Guru


 
City: Full-time onboard
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 937
Quote:
Is there a android pad?
Yes there are. I have 2 of them. I would strongly suggest getting an iPad instead. There are more boating apps for the iPad and those apps are much better with more capabilities.


Quote:
So if all you want is, in essence, an iPad version of charts (plus an Active Captain overlay) Navimatics will do the job for you.

If what you want is a full-up chart plotter for navigational use, Navionics is the program you'll want to check out.
This ignores Garmin's app which is far and away the best one out there combining the best of multiple other apps. This is especially true if you have any need for Bahamas charts or want to combine other chart regions into a single app.

I also have Navimatics, Navionics, and about a dozen other chart apps. The only one I have now in real use on my helm while underway is the Garmin one. And Garmin BlueChart Mobile, unlike Navionics, allows you to run the exact same software for no additional cost on your iPhone - that's a nice advantage saving the cost of buying another app with a different user-interface which is what Navionics offers..

To be honest, I hate the Navionics app while underway because it only displays the charts as north up on the iPad. I don't think that constitutes a "full-up chart plotter" - sorry Marin. The Garmin displays the much more desirable course up.
Jeffrey S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 05:18 PM   #46
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
I don't use Navionics, Jeff, only Navimatics. And underway Navimatics will display either heading up or north up. I've never played with Navionics so don't know what its displays are like.

We don't use computer-based navigation on the boat at all, only dedicated plotters.

My only reason for including only Navimatics and Navionics in that last post was to try to eliminate confusion between their very similar names.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 06:04 PM   #47
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
Thanks Ocean Breeze, You are correct. the water here is too deep. I will move on.
A M Johnson
27' Marben-pocket trawler
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 09:18 PM   #48
Member
 
lhemmerich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al View Post
How antiquated am I! I have an older Lowrance chart unit that has a very slow rotation cycle. The Navonics (sp) is a schedule 1 or something, it is not common anymore I know that. What I miss from my last boat which had a Interphase unit and really only use, is speed over ground, & "go to". neither are on this machine.
I am interested in the discussion of using an ipad with GPS. Sure enough, when I spoke with the very young sales rep, I, as usual, glazed over eyes and ears that don't comperhend the technical speak. Convinced that a 16 'gig'(?) will suffice. Yet, as I am android with my phone and home computer, it sounds like I am treading towards Apple with the ipad.
Simple inquire: Is there a android pad? Could I obtain a couple of suggestions on programs that will give me both 'speed over ground' and "Go To"? To, I'd like normal NOAA chart presentation, not the mickey mouse screen as the Interphase used.

Forgive me for being as far behind as it appears. Just a simple boater who still references paper charts, dividers, and compass rose spread bars.
Just want to see from where to there and how long.
A.M.Johnson
27 Marben pocket trawler
AL...THERE ARE tablets that run on android, BUT the Garmin APP is only designed for the iPad

You say you are android with you computer..what computer? Maybe Microsoft?
You may find the iPad is a very useful tool and love it

I am not sure what you are really asking

Larry
lhemmerich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-30-2012, 11:27 PM   #49
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Country: usa
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,690
You say you are android with you computer..what computer? Maybe Microsoft?
You may find the iPad is a very useful tool and love it

I am not sure what you are really asking

Larry

Larry- While I have a pc at home, and a Motorola phone. purchasing a ipad makes the mix.
I was asking if some would recommend a navigation program with NOAA map texture, "speed over ground" and "go to" features
I don't want to muck up the forum conversation.
Thanks
A.M.Johnson
27'Marben pocket trawler

Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 12:52 AM   #50
Guru
 
rochepoint's Avatar
 
City: Sidney BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Rochepoint
Vessel Model: 1985 Cheer Men PT38 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,191
Al
Here are two screen capture photos, one from Garmin and the other from Navionics (see name of photos). I think maybe these are waters you now. Hope this helps.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Garmin.jpg
Views:	98
Size:	105.4 KB
ID:	15206   Click image for larger version

Name:	Navionics.jpg
Views:	87
Size:	101.4 KB
ID:	15207  
__________________
Cheers Mike Barge
MV Rochepoint
Sidney, British Columbia.
"Yes, I have the right anchor"
rochepoint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 07:18 AM   #51
Veteran Member
 
tiku's Avatar
 
City: Espoo
Country: Finland
Vessel Name: Carpe Diem
Vessel Model: Storebro 34
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 74
Here are some screenshots from my ipad running inavx with navionics gold charts, I think you guys can use the free US charts so for you it is cheaper.

In our waters where rocks are in abundance and my favorite harbours being the ones on inhabitant small island i really like the ablitys to check satellite images. (If you look at the pics I'm sure you see why its useful).

Routes can be seen in satellite ovelays as pins and I can even export the routes I have made to google maps and show the routes as flyovers to friends on the bigscreen back at home.

For the coming season I'm planning on hooking the Ipad to my autopilot and using go to's and ready routes by just tapping the screen anywhere in the boat. Of course this is just my backup system, paper charts still rule.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	image-3617110273.jpg
Views:	85
Size:	114.2 KB
ID:	15211   Click image for larger version

Name:	image-3292178557.jpg
Views:	84
Size:	65.5 KB
ID:	15212   Click image for larger version

Name:	image-89713617.jpg
Views:	79
Size:	57.3 KB
ID:	15213  
__________________
Storebro 34 Royal Cruiser - 1969
Twin Volvo Penta Tamd 40b with shafts
www.storebro34rc.blogspot.fi
tiku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 08:36 AM   #52
Guru


 
City: Full-time onboard
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiku View Post
Here are some screenshots from my ipad running inavx with navionics gold charts, I think you guys can use the free US charts so for you it is cheaper.
The Garmin app is free. The Garmin North America region is about $45 (I have it so I can't see the current price - it might be $49 now). That's about the price of just the iNavX software. Then you have to purchase the US and Canadaian Navionics Gold charts for iNavX - which are even more expensive than the iNavX app - how much were they for the US and Canada for just the charts?

The Garmin North America region includes all the US, Bahamas, Canada, Mexico, the entire Caribbean and even parts of Central America. I'd love a comparison price between that and the comperable Navionics charts for the iPad.

The Navimatics app is $25 for US and Western Canada and includes the charts. That's about half the price of iNavX without any Canadian charts (the expensive part).

iNavX is the most expensive way to go charting on the iPad. I've owned iNavX since the day it was first released and to be honest, I never use it. I find it difficult to use with annoying side effects like snapping back to your position automatically when you delay for a second while panning around and planning (or you can turn that feature off but then have to go through a couple of menus to turn it back on). My dislike for iNavX isn't totally about lack of ActiveCaptain support either although that hurts it for my personal use too. There are other apps I use without ActiveCaptain support like the Navionics app itself.

And not to be argumentative but I totally gave up paper charts in December 2010. My wife finally threw them off the boat last spring when she demanded the space beneath our stateroom bed. It was one of the best things I did and I believe has made the navigation and operation of my trawler significantly safer. It's actually an easy claim to substantiate especially when we all have so many backup devices, computers, pads, and phones (watches next?).

In April 2011 while offshore at night, all the Raymarine equipment on my boat blinked and went black (all of that was replaced last spring). The autopilot stopped as we approached a tricky offshore channel called the Frying Pan Shoals Slue. After going through that experience I'm even more convinced that paper chart's time is gone. The paper would have provided nothing but a potential waste of time and added danger. I blogged about it right after it happened:
http://www.takingpaws.com/2011/04/el...wn-at-sea.html

Spoiler alert - we made it.
Jeffrey S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 10:05 AM   #53
Veteran Member
 
tiku's Avatar
 
City: Espoo
Country: Finland
Vessel Name: Carpe Diem
Vessel Model: Storebro 34
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 74
Sorry my bad, had not checked the pricing scheme... Personally I consider the Inavx + charts to be really really cheap when compared to what you get for the price. I like it and found it useful for my purposes.

I did quite a lot of reading when making the desicion this or navionics own app and went this way since i tried the other and it felt like a toy, at least for me.

As stated I still rely on paper charts but they dont have AIS receiver, which I have running on ipad while underway (through 3g).

First and foremost I like the ability to create routes during the wintertime and then running them through google and checking what the views are like, kinda like having a boating simulator...
__________________
Storebro 34 Royal Cruiser - 1969
Twin Volvo Penta Tamd 40b with shafts
www.storebro34rc.blogspot.fi
tiku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2012, 02:38 PM   #54
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
We still keep paper charts on board, partly because we both simply like paper charts and partly because we use them as fast "big picture" references to the area around us. The iPad with Navimatics has picked up some of the "big picture" reference role but we still keep the relevant chartbook open beside the helm. (As I've mentioned earlier Navimatics is a charting tool only, it is not a navigation tool in the sense of a full-function plotter.)

And when navigating narrow and/or tricky bits of water we use the paper charts, particularly when the water we're in has a small scale paper chart or insert associated with it, as a check on the electronic charts. While we have not yet found any glaring discrepancies between the electronics and reality they do exist in various places depending on which electronic chart package is being used.

But we have not reached the stage where we would feel confident heading out on a longer cruise with no paper charts on board at all. We do not have an electrical system with multiple, redundant paths. American Marine put very simple (KISS) electrical systems in their boats with house and start batteries and one 12vdc system. We do have a generator with its own start battery, but there is only the one DC system on the boat.

If we were to lose that for some reason we would have no electronic navigation capabilities despite the multiple full-function plotters, radar, etc. The iPad would run until its battery gave out, and we don't have a full-up plotter app on it anyway as we have so far not seen one we would want to use and rely on.

So we keep our paper charts. They take up very little space, particularly the four chartbooks, so it's no inconvenience at all. And, as I said at the outset, we just like paper charts. Me from decades of flying and my wife from both her flying and her stint in the Navy. They're fun to look at and study and plan trips on and draw on and so forth. We like the tactile nature of paper in this regard. We don't get the same experience from a glowing piece of glass.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 02:11 AM   #55
TF Site Team
 
Peter B's Avatar
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Lotus
Vessel Model: Clipper (CHB) 34 Sedan/Europa style
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 6,669
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post
Yes there are. I have 2 of them. I would strongly suggest getting an iPad instead. There are more boating apps for the iPad and those apps are much better with more capabilities.
This ignores Garmin's app which is far and away the best one out there combining the best of multiple other apps. This is especially true if you have any need for Bahamas charts or want to combine other chart regions into a single app.

I also have Navimatics, Navionics, and about a dozen other chart apps. The only one I have now in real use on my helm while underway is the Garmin one. And Garmin BlueChart Mobile, unlike Navionics, allows you to run the exact same software for no additional cost on your iPhone - that's a nice advantage saving the cost of buying another app with a different user-interface which is what Navionics offers..

To be honest, I hate the Navionics app while underway because it only displays the charts as north up on the iPad. I don't think that constitutes a "full-up chart plotter" - sorry Marin. The Garmin displays the much more desirable course up.
Actually Active C the latest Navionics V 4.1 does allow for either north up or course up. I just 'discovered this by accident today. on our way back to our berth I tapped on the arrow icon at bottom left of screen and it suddenly swung the screen around to a course up presentation. To that point I had also resigned myself to the fact it was going to be only north up. The strange thing is the arrow icon has the word Legal above it - not what one would expect as the heading for course direction icon I would have thought...? Because of that weird label, it was a couple of days out before I even found that one tap on this arrow icon made it start the moving chart operation....two taps turns the arrow around and gives course up. I only downloaded the app two days before we set out when I got the iPad for Xmas, so I plead insuff time rather than crass ignorance. It was just as backup to my trusty Lowrance anyway. Fortunately it appears that I also mis-read Marin's post, and bought the Navionics, not the Navimatics. It only cost $40, as opposed to $321 for the Garmin Bluechart, and does serve as a full nav system, and to Al I would just say I certainly can recommend it. If I learnt to use it in two days, anyone can.
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 07:41 AM   #56
Guru


 
City: Full-time onboard
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Trawler
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
Actually Active C the latest Navionics V 4.1 does allow for either north up or course up
....
It only cost $40, as opposed to $321 for the Garmin Bluechart,
You're right about the course up. For some reason, my iPad's Navionics app is on 5.0.4 - it never was given the 4.1 update to the latest version (4.1 is actually ahead of 5.0.4 in some odd developer's mind somewhere). I guess they expected me to spend another $49.99 on it and it's odd that I was never asked. But you're right - course up is now supported on the iPad.

But you're wrong about prices. First, Navionics US is $49.99. Second, you'd have a difficult time spending $300 on Garmin BlueChart Mobile for the entire world's charts (make sure you're looking at their iOS products). I'm pretty sure Garmin is $29.99 for the US and $49.99 for all of North America (Canada/Mexico included). With Garmin you can add any region of charts into the single app so you can add Europe to the singe app with all your other charts, routes, etc.

Navionics US & Canada for iPad is $54.99 (won't run on iPhone). There's no way to just add Canada. And if you want Mexico, you have to buy Caribbean & S America for another $54.99 and it'll be a separate app and not integrated to the others.

Also with Navionics, their apps only work on the iPad or the iPhone, not both. If you want to run their apps on the iPhone, you'll have to buy them again although the iPhone licenses are much less expensive. When you purchase charts for Garmin's app they'll run on both the iPad and iPhone without purchasing anything else. In fact, it'll also work on my wife's iPhone and iPad without any additional purchases. And since I do have the European charts too, so does she.

Hey, I've said more than enough on all of these topics. I'm unsubscribing from the thread - happy new year and may whatever app you use keep you safe!
Jeffrey S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 11:05 AM   #57
Guru
 
Ocean Breeze NL's Avatar
 
City: Springdale, NL
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Ocean Breeze
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 85OA38
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 530
Quote:
Originally Posted by ActiveCaptain View Post

Navionics US & Canada for iPad is $54.99 (won't run on iPhone).

Also with Navionics, their apps only work on the iPad or the iPhone, not both.

Not so, I run Navionics on both iPad and iPhone. Last week I went for a ride in the country and here is the track via iPhone.



Click image for larger version

Name:	image-2930148759.jpg
Views:	99
Size:	85.8 KB
ID:	15236

Sent from my iPhone using Trawler
__________________
Elwin
Ocean Breeze NL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #58
Guru
 
Codger2's Avatar
 
City: San Diego
Country: US
Vessel Name: "Sandpiper"
Vessel Model: 2006 42' Ocean Alexander Sedan
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,420
[QUOTE=Marin;123024]

We don't use computer-based navigation on the boat at all, only dedicated plotters.

We don't either.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1452.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	88.2 KB
ID:	15237  
Codger2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 02:04 PM   #59
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ocean Breeze NL View Post
Not so, I run Navionics on both iPad and iPhone. Last week I went for a ride in the country and here is the track via iPhone.
I think what he is saying is that if you buy Navionics for an iPad you cannot put the same purchased app on your iPhone and visa versa. You have to buy it again for the other platform. Whether this is correct or not I don't know.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2013, 02:16 PM   #60
Guru
 
City: Georgia
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 952
The applications are different, and an I-pad application won't work on a i-phone and vice-versa, or so I'm told. That's why you see "now available for i-pad download" and such nonsense. Don't know if the one subscription is valid over multiple platforms or not. It should be, but my opinion wasn't consulted.
__________________

Rambler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012