Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-17-2015, 08:00 AM   #21
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,683
Quote:
Originally Posted by grahamdouglass View Post
My water heater only works on shore power or generator power and is not run through the inverter. It is kept totally seperate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonstruck View Post
+1, also my A/C does not run through the inverter.
Yes and yes.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 10:03 AM   #22
Guru
 
cafesport's Avatar
 
City: Miami
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 800
Our water heater is 240 VAC but I see no upside to having it or the house water pump on when the boat is unattended. Even though we have an auto flush on one of our watermakers I still don’t like leaving the water pump on.


Via iPhone.
__________________
Via iOS.
cafesport is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 10:53 AM   #23
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
You aren't missing anything. The relay should be "downstream" of the heater breaker and a single pole on the hot lead is all that is needed.

Here you go ... $6 on ebay:
1pcs Soild State Relay SSR 25 AA AC AC 25A 250V 80 250VAC 24 380VAC | eBay
Well, that's what I would hope would be the case, but was not clear from the OP. Add in the hassle of now running another lead from the shore power inlet (before the inverter), and another breaker, and I guess I just don't understand the complication and additional point of failure vs just breaking out the WH circuit from the inverter-driven buss. To each their own!
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 12:31 PM   #24
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
FWIW we also heat the domestic water via our hydronic Hurricane furnace. We have a large battery bank and 3kw MSW inverter, but removed the generator. With an "aquastat" we can have unlimited hot water without running an engine. It also scavenges engine heat through an exchanger into the hydronic loop. I originally set it up to keep the engine warm in winter but stopped using that feature (which required a small engine circulation pump).
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 02:07 PM   #25
TG
Senior Member
 
TG's Avatar
 
City: Oceanside, CA
Vessel Name: Tera Grace
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
Well, for many boats, it will take a double pole relay to switch the feed to the water heater and the air conditioner, two appliances that you probably don't want to power with an inverter.

Splitting the main panel buss isn't that hard. Hopefully the two big power users that you don't want to run from the inverter are on one end of the heavy brass DC buss that supplies the breakers. You cut that buss with a hacksaw to separate it from the other breakers. Make sure that the gap is significant, maybe a 1/4" because if that gap closes it will fry your inverter.

If it is on the end that feeds the buss, fine. Otherwise you will have to separate the buss from the main breaker feed and run heavy 10 gauge wire to feed those two breakers and leave the others disconnected from the main breaker.

Now feed the AC input to the inverter's transfer switch from the main breaker. Run the inverter's AC output back to the main panel and connect it to the buss that feeds the remaining breakers.

If the two heavy load breakers aren't next to each other at the end of the buss you can try moving them or worse case jumper wire them to the output of the main DC breaker.

This is all difficult to explain in words. Xantrex and Freedom before them used to have a diagram of how to do it in the Freedom 10/20/30 installation instructions, but I haven't looked in a long time to see if it is still on line.

This way you have a mechanically sure wired way to separate the big loads from the inverter that doesn't depend on any relays.

David
Don't forget to isolate the neutrals on the inverter output with the above configuration. Xantrex inverters can not have the input and output neutrals combined or it creates a cycling issue. You would need to add a separate neutral buss bar on the output side of the inverter for the loads passed through or powered by the inverter.
TG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 03:02 PM   #26
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,276
You can make an inverter "sub panel" by ganging the inverter circuits. Cut the neutral bus bar. The inverter circuits cannot share a common neutral with the main panel. I ganged my inverter fed circuits in the bottom right corner of my panel. The neutral for those circuits tie back to the inverter. In my case the inverter is grounded to the DC ground bus. It is very important to follow the instructions for your inverter. If you connect to a common neutral with the main panel it will fry the inverter.

Also it is important to place a warning that there are circuits fed by an inverter. The inverter will need to be disconnected or 115 volt AC will still be present even if the shore power is off. Could cause a problem.
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
https://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 03:40 PM   #27
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
All this inverter switching wiring is making my eyes cross!

I route all my AC through the inverter (actually through an isolation transformer prior). So, yes, I have to remember to cut AC to water heater when anchored, but that's when I go around shutting things down anyway. Running it gets heated via engine or furnace.
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 04:29 PM   #28
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
All this inverter switching wiring is making my eyes cross!

I route all my AC through the inverter (actually through an isolation transformer prior). So, yes, I have to remember to cut AC to water heater when anchored, but that's when I go around shutting things down anyway. Running it gets heated via engine or furnace.
That's why I found it so much easier to just have the circuits fed by the inverter on their own panel(s). I was blessed with plenty of room to put it right above the main sub-panel it was tied to, as well as having the inverter control right next to it. Made the whole system a no-brainer and easy to teach others. {and yes, we straightened every thing up before final install; it's sitting on the helm seat in this pic...}

__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 07:39 PM   #29
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Well, that's what I would hope would be the case, but was not clear from the OP. Add in the hassle of now running another lead from the shore power inlet (before the inverter), and another breaker, and I guess I just don't understand the complication and additional point of failure vs just breaking out the WH circuit from the inverter-driven buss. To each their own!
I guess I am confused now ... what is complicated about putting a matchbox size SSR a few inches downstream of the existing heater breaker? Use two of them (one on each leg) if your heater is 240V. The control power cable (a pair of #18 wires) would be all of about a foot long and connected to the shore power switch.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 08:39 PM   #30
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
Inverter and Water Heater

Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
That's why I found it so much easier to just have the circuits fed by the inverter on their own panel(s). I was blessed with plenty of room to put it right above the main sub-panel it was tied to, as well as having the inverter control right next to it. Made the whole system a no-brainer and easy to teach others. {and yes, we straightened every thing up before final install; it's sitting on the helm seat in this pic...}

I can't quite make out the labeling, but I don't see the water heater. And other than possibly that one item, I can't imagine what 120VAC item you would NOT want while cruising. And if there were such an item, why it would be unreasonable to simply not use it. Or turn its breaker off. But have no possibility of using it? I don't get that.
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 09:00 PM   #31
Al
Guru
 
Al's Avatar
 
City: ketchikan, Alaska
Vessel Name: 'SLO'~BELLE
Vessel Model: 1978 Marben-27' Flybridge Trawler(extended to 30 feet) Pilothouse Pocket Cruiser[
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2,206
Clarification on the smaller 25 Watt inverter. Yes, the cell and Ipad can use the UBS, my electric razor and hearing aid charger not so much.

Al-Ketchikan
Al is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2015, 10:36 PM   #32
Guru
 
City: Seattle
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
FWIW we also heat the domestic water via our hydronic Hurricane furnace. We have a large battery bank and 3kw MSW inverter, but removed the generator. With an "aquastat" we can have unlimited hot water without running an engine. It also scavenges engine heat through an exchanger into the hydronic loop.
So you are running a propane gas water heater? Any issues with it?
Mako is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 10:21 AM   #33
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by refugio View Post
I can't quite make out the labeling, but I don't see the water heater. And other than possibly that one item, I can't imagine what 120VAC item you would NOT want while cruising. And if there were such an item, why it would be unreasonable to simply not use it. Or turn its breaker off. But have no possibility of using it? I don't get that.
All the stuff not powered by the inverter is on other panels. In our case, stove, water heater, AC, laundry dryer, dishwasher, 3 non-inverter battery chargers, and miscellaneous stuff.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 10:24 AM   #34
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickB View Post
I guess I am confused now ... what is complicated about putting a matchbox size SSR a few inches downstream of the existing heater breaker? Use two of them (one on each leg) if your heater is 240V. The control power cable (a pair of #18 wires) would be all of about a foot long and connected to the shore power switch.
I think you answered your own question ;o)

You forgot protection for the trigger wire from the shore power.

You can accomplish the OP's mission without adding any new devices or connectors.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 10:53 AM   #35
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
All the stuff not powered by the inverter is on other panels. In our case, stove, water heater, AC, laundry dryer, dishwasher, 3 non-inverter battery chargers, and miscellaneous stuff.
Ah, now I get it - you have a generator for those away from shore power.
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 10:59 AM   #36
Technical Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 6,194
I went the simple route. My inverter powers my entire 30A AC panel, so some operator attention is needed. Switch off the big loads like aircon, WH, air comp. Turn off fridge so compressor can bleed down. Switch to inverter, after five min turn on fridge. No relays, but operator has to think a bit.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 11:00 AM   #37
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
So you are running a propane gas water heater? Any issues with it?
Ah, no - it's a 120VAC Torrid with a heat exchanger loop to the Hurricane with another in-line exchanger to the engine cooling system.

The aquastat calls for heat and - if the hydronic loop is warm enough while cruising - it scavenges from there, otherwise fires the Hurricane.

Semi-related, we have a 400w Insta-hot in the galley. Most quick needs for hot/warm water are handled there and it's only when showering / washing up that the water heater comes into play.
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 12:16 PM   #38
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,348
Quote:
No relays, but operator has to think a bit.
We try to reduce requirements for operator thinking as much as possible , given the capacities of the operators in question.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 07:53 PM   #39
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: North Vancouver
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,877
All substantial loads on our vessel are non-inverter loads. This included the microwave. When I installed the new magnum 2812, the electrician put the microwave on the inverter side of the panel so we,can do small cooking jobs. I turn the inverter off most of the time unless required. Space heaters in the winter...power off...not a good situation.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2015, 10:22 PM   #40
Guru
 
refugio's Avatar
 
City: Meydenbauer Bay Yacht Club
Vessel Name: Lulu (Refugio sold)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,284
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
I turn the inverter off most of the time unless required. Space heaters in the winter...power off...not a good situation.
Well I just turn the inverter off at the dock. Different strokes
__________________
Keith
refugio is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012