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Old 02-21-2016, 02:03 PM   #21
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Peter. WRT this comment. Do you follow James Hamilton's blog?
Yes, I follow the blog and have talked to him about his modification. Our objectives are similar, and really two-fold:

1) be able to run moderate 240V loads while underway with out the generator. Our alternators can support about 7kw, so that's our max sustained load while not draining the batteries. We don't want to run that way all the time, and I'd actually like to stay more around 5kw just to keep the current levels down. But that will support cloths washing and an AC unit or two, though probably not at the same time. But I figure if we are in heavy need of AC, I'll just run the generator.

2) More seamless operation with 50hz shore power. This isn't an issue until we leave north america, but that time is coming. But the idea is to be able to run 240V appliances that require 60hz off the inverter, and take shore power in via charger(s) that are frequency and voltage insensitive. Some of our 240V appliances can run on 50 or 60hz, like our how water heater and AC. But others are locked into 60hz like the washer and dryer and the oven. Bringing power in at 50hz and converting it to DC via a charger, then inverting to 60 hz 240V allows those appliances to run seamlessly. You just need to be sure your shore chargers keep up with the load, on average.

A third possible feature, but one I don't think we can take advantage of, is regulating/limiting your shore power draw. Lots of places only have 16A@230V, so about 3.6kw. If you limit the shore power draw to 16A on the charger, then you can avoid nuisance trips of breakers while still consuming more than 3.6kw on board. Your average load of course needs to be well under 3.6kw, but the inverter and batteries can handle short term loads in excess of the shore power limit, providing much more flexibility on board. We will be able to do some of this, but not all of our 240V loads will run through the inverter, the AC in particular, so we don't have a single device that can regulate the full load.

Anyway, this is getting pretty far off topic, so maybe we can pick it up in another thread if there is interest...
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Old 02-21-2016, 04:36 PM   #22
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Henry:

Others have covered the inverter that you need. My thoughts are directed to your batteries. If you plan to run a household refrigerator, and other loads, you will need at least double the number of batteries that you would have without the fridge.

My own experience is the reverse of this. I took out a Norcold AC/DC unit and replaced it with a fridge run on a Danfoss DC compressor. I then reduced my battery supply to 1/2 of what had been inadequate to keep the fridge running. Now I have more than I need, and also run a 2nd Danfoss, in a small stand alone freezer.
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:47 PM   #23
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There is no way a DC compressor can be as efficient as a 120 volt ac compressor of the same type doing the same job. Thats my opinion, I need convincing. Would convert all my fridge loads to DC if I could be sold on it.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:46 AM   #24
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Guess it depends on what your refrigeration loads are.
I have what used to be a Norcold 8 cu ft box, powered by their AC/DC compressor. Changing to a Danfoss DC compressor resulted in much improved efficiency, so much that I was able to reduce my battery bank to 1/2 of what couldn't keep up with the demands of the old fridge. I have been happy with the Danfoss for almost 20 years now.
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:07 AM   #25
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My Slendide will not run on my ME2012 mod sign wave inverters. Also, have never burnt up a small cordless tool charger but have talked to plenty of folks that have. Sine wave or not doesnt make any difference on load carrying ability, most mod wave units have higher start capacity than tru sine units. My experience has been that bigger loads are easier to run that very small. I would approach the inverter issue as a complete unified installation, not as an add on. And no, a stand alone charger cant even get close to a 2000 watt inverter/charger in power, efficiency or cost.
This is a known issue with the Splendide washer/dryers and the Magnum ME2012 inverter. The startup requirements of the Splendide are beyond the peak capacity of the inverter.

Magnum was very helpful with this issue and my solution was to upgrade inverters to the ME2812.
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:22 AM   #26
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My Splendide wouldn't run properly if my MasterVolt inverter/charger was even turned on. I could be on generator or shore power, and as long as the inverter/charger was turned on, the Splendide wouldn't run correctly. Of course both companies pointed the finger at the other. I think it's pretty ironic that the Splendide, which is targeted at RV and Marine applications here in the US, doesn't work in many situations with Inverters.
Missed this post when I posted on the Splendide Magnum issue. What is the capacity / output of your MasterVolt inverter, and what is the peak output.

The Splendide units have a high start up demand which has been known for years (and which I understand is true of other washers). Back in 2002 I was warned that only the Xantrex 2000 pro among the smaller units had the peak capacity for starting a washer dryer. Both the Magnum 2800 and the Victron 2800 can power the Splendide at start up.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:09 AM   #27
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" I have been happy with the Danfoss for almost 20 years now."

Although in the 2 decades Danfoss has gotten even better!
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:48 PM   #28
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Missed this post when I posted on the Splendide Magnum issue. What is the capacity / output of your MasterVolt inverter, and what is the peak output.

The Splendide units have a high start up demand which has been known for years (and which I understand is true of other washers). Back in 2002 I was warned that only the Xantrex 2000 pro among the smaller units had the peak capacity for starting a washer dryer. Both the Magnum 2800 and the Victron 2800 can power the Splendide at start up.
The Mastervolt was 2500W I think. But the interesting part of the puzzle is that when the problems occurred, the inverter was not powering the washer. It was in bypass mode and passing shore power or gen power straight through. It also didn't matter if the Mastervolt was charging or not. It was clearly some sort of interference, but I was never able to sort it out, even whether it was conducted or radiated interference. I finally gave up and would just shut down the Mastervolt and throw the external bypass switch.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:58 PM   #29
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Have a 24-volt DC refrigerator and a 120-volt AC air compressor for the air horn and wall plugs. The disadvantage of AC is that the air compressor won't work when the inverter is on the blink.

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Old 02-23-2016, 03:41 AM   #30
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The Mastervolt was 2500W I think. But the interesting part of the puzzle is that when the problems occurred, the inverter was not powering the washer. It was in bypass mode and passing shore power or gen power straight through. It also didn't matter if the Mastervolt was charging or not. It was clearly some sort of interference, but I was never able to sort it out, even whether it was conducted or radiated interference. I finally gave up and would just shut down the Mastervolt and throw the external bypass switch.
That is the first I have heard of that problem. Questions: Did you try and run the washer just on the inverter? Does your inverter have a maximum 110v draw setting (maximum power it will take from shore or the genset)? If so at what level is it set? Unintentionally we set our maximum draw too low one time and the bypass was unable to power the tea pot.
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Old 02-23-2016, 07:27 AM   #31
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"There is no way a DC compressor can be as efficient."

DC is far more efficient ,the AC unit just switches on, runs at a different load , (warm box , cold box ) till the thermostat is satisfied.No attempt to match the running RPM to the coolant load can be made.

The DC units computer will match the cooling requirements , compressor RPM , to the actual box loads.

The very slow operation of the unit most of the time , just maintaining box temperature is Very efficient.

PBB had a great article a year or two back that goes into depth on the many advantages.

And they did not even bother with the 10% inverter loss from an AC unit on DC.
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:35 AM   #32
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That is the first I have heard of that problem. Questions: Did you try and run the washer just on the inverter? Does your inverter have a maximum 110v draw setting (maximum power it will take from shore or the genset)? If so at what level is it set? Unintentionally we set our maximum draw too low one time and the bypass was unable to power the tea pot.
Yes, it was a real head scratcher. It's been several years now, so I'm going off memory which is dangerous but.... I think the kicker was that the washer wasn't even wired to the inverter. The inverter powered a select set of circuits, and the washer was not one of them. So washer load and inverter capacity never interacted with one another. They were just side by side loads on the same shore or gen power source. So it could only be electrical noise (radiated or conducted) that was tricking the washer. And the washer failure mode was very odd too. When you first start it, it goes through a short cycle to be sure the drum is pumped dry. It would remain stuck in that cycle until it errorred out. The error code said the drum was both empty and full at the same time, so some sort of sensor malfunction. Turn off the inverter (remember, it's just a side by side load, like running the TV at the same time), and the washer would work fine. I replaced all the relevant parts as my expense and to no avail. I also experimented with ferrites on the power cord, but no joy.

My final conclusion was that without a scope I would never figure it out, and I had long ago thrown away my 100 lb, tube-powered Tektronics scope.

I have encountered two other similar problems, but these are sensitivities to running on a generator. One was the electronic igniter (the spark spark spark lighter) on a gas stove. It would not go click click click when the house was running on the generator. Definitely not a load problem since the clicker draws only a tiny amount of power. It cause quite the surprise on Thanksgiving when we discovered the oven had not relit in the past 3 hours and the turkey was still raw....

I've got another such issue currently with a modern gas boiler. It's a Buderus modulated super efficient burner that heats my barn/shop. When my generator is running, it errors out. It lights, but the flame detect circuit doesn't agree and it shuts down. After a few attempts it locks out and requires a manual reset - something that does not go well with unattended operation. I ended up building a lockout circuit to keep the boiler from firing when the generator is running. The shop building is super insulated with lots of thermal mass, so the temp only drops a degree or two over an 8hr generator run, so it works OK.

One irony here is that I've had much better success running devices off inverters than off generators. I don't think I've found anything that doesn't work off a sine wave inverter, where I have a handful that don't work off of generators.
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:30 AM   #33
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It appears I opened a hornet nest on this one. Thanks everyone for your input. I will continue my research with all your information as I move forward.
Coming from a sailboat for over 40 years, to our motor yacht / trawler will be a new adventure and education for us
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:43 AM   #34
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If a device does not function on a typical generator when it should, then I suspect the speed of the gen is too high or low since the frequency of AC power is determined by rotating gen rpm. So maybe the gen is not close to 60 cycles.
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:22 AM   #35
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If a device does not function on a typical generator when it should, then I suspect the speed of the gen is too high or low since the frequency of AC power is determined by rotating gen rpm. So maybe the gen is not close to 60 cycles.
True, but as accurately as I can measure it, it's dead nuts on. Now that might not be exact enough for the burner control, but I can't make it any closer....
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Old 02-24-2016, 12:55 PM   #36
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For those having problems with the Magnum charger not playing with the Splendide washer, this may be a solution. No personal experience.
mv.VikingStar: Summary and Conclusion: Compatibility Issue Between MS2000 inverter and Splendide 2100XC Washer/Dryer
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:09 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by hfmckevitt View Post
It appears I opened a hornet nest on this one. Thanks everyone for your input. I will continue my research with all your information as I move forward.
Coming from a sailboat for over 40 years, to our motor yacht / trawler will be a new adventure and education for us
Thank you
Henry & Linda
M/V Linda Lee
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If all you want to do is power your fridge there is no need to get an expensive inverter/charger. Just find out the starting load for your fridge and get a simple, basic inverter that covers that load.
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:42 AM   #38
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"If all you want to do is power your fridge there is no need to get an expensive inverter/charger. Just find out the starting load for your fridge and get a simple, basic inverter that covers that load."

Just so, $100 should do it.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:07 AM   #39
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(For those having problems with the Magnum charger not playing with the Splendide washer, this may be a solution. No personal experience.
mv.VikingStar: Summary and Conclusion: Compatibility Issue Between MS2000 inverter and Splendide 2100XC Washer/Dryer)

That should work to take care of the washer problem on a Magnum - like it says, be sure to get a Run Cap vs Starter Cap (capacitor). I have installed Start Caps on older land based A/C condensers, in my rental units, that have a hard time getting going - gives them a bit longer life. Wow, wonder if something like that will work for us old TF's?
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