Horn fetish?

[Marin]

Old Stone wrote:I know the horns are required in a fog, but is there any requirement for radar?

If you read the Colregs--- always a good idea

--- it says something to the effect that when underway a vessel should be using "all appropriate means" of collision avoidance that are available on the vessel.* I'm paraphrasing and I'm sure someone will post the actual text.*

It's a bit controversial in its interpretation.* Some people interpret this to mean that if your boat has radar you must have it on at all times underway regardless of the visibility conditions.* After asking for an interpretation from some USCG folks a number of years ago, I don't believe this is the case.* The language does not say if you have it you have to be using it at all times.* It says that you have to be using all the means of collision avoidance that are appropriate to the circumstances.

In other words, it's up to you to determine what is appropriate under the circumstances..* Obviously, fog requires the use of radar if you have it (although it's still up to you whether you choose to use it).* If the visibility is great, it's still up to you whether to use the radar or not.

HOWEVER....... if you manage to run into someone in good visibility or bad, or someone runs into you, and it is found that you did not have your radar on and were monitoring it, then you are in violation* because hitting another boat is a circumstance that radar could have prevented.* Therefore, since you didn't have it on and you hit someone or were hit, you were not using all the available means of collision avoidance relevant to the situation.

When we had the old Raytheon 2600 that came with the boat, a CRT unit that required the use of a hood, we only used it when the visibility was poor in an effort to maximize the life of the tube. When it began to fail we replaced it with a Furuno NavNet with a daylight LCD screen, and this we have on whenever we are running. Not because it's necessary in good visibility but so that we remain totally familiar with what targets look like on the display and can practice adjusting the gain controls to ensure that we see everything around us.* Then if we do get into fog it's a no-brainer transiition to "driving on instruments" for us because we'd been monitoring the radar all along as well as following a GPS plotter course.

Bottom line is that if you have radar you don't have to have it on when you're running.* But should you have an accident or incident that could have been prevented by having your radar on AND monitoring it, you will be found neglegent of at least that aspect of the Colregs regardless of who caused the accident and what the visibility was at the time.* You're not going to be pulled over and given a ticket if you're running your boat in good or bad visiblity with the radar off.* Nobody's gonna know.* It's all about what happens if you have a collision.* That's from the perspective of the rules.* Common sense is another matter--- some people have it, some people don't.







-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 01:40:53 PM

 

[Marin]

Old Stone wrote:My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.

It's actually not a nice, simple question because there is no nice, simple answer (unfortunately)** As I stated the use of radar is not required-- ever--- according to the interpretation I was given by the USCG folks I talked to.** But-- as I said--- some people interpret the wording of the Colregs differently, and read it to mean that the use of radar IS required if you have it.

So the answer to your question will be based on how you interpret the wording in the Colregs.

Your question has come up countless times in forums like T&T and the Grand Banks owners group and in the end, it all comes down to interpretation.* Unfortunatly the Colreg wording can be taken either way* and it has been the source of discussions that went on for days.* You get as many people saying you legally HAVE to use your radar in fog (or anything else) as say you SHOULD use your radar in fog but you don't HAVE to.

How to you interpret the wording?



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 02:26:28 PM

 

[JD]

Old Stone wrote:

Marin - I'm going to let the comment about "if you read the Colregs-always a good idea" pass this time. Watch it next time though. Now, even YOU just answered that radar is not specifically required, but use of it is. My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.

My take is if you got it use it and you are covered.* The other thought I have is the more you have it on the better you can get with it.

Truth be known it would depend on just how good your lawyer really is at convincing the judge that you were A: not at fault, B:You did everything possible to avoid the accident or C:*all of the above.

*

 

[Marin]

JD wrote:My take is if you got it use it and you are covered.

While it's debatable if this is an accurate, legal interpretation of the Colregs it is certainly the smartest course of action to follow in my opinion.

 

[Marin]

Old Stone wrote:

But my original question was simply "is radar required". In other words is a vessel required to be equiped with a radar unit?

Oh.* That's not how your question read to me.* I thought you meant is radar required in fog.* But does a vessel HAVE to have a radar unit?* No, unless a very large number of boats--- big and small--- in our marina are all illegal.* The Colregs say that you have to use every means available to avoid a collision.* If you don't have radar and want to boat in the fog, there's nothing illegal about that because radar is not available to you.

Most of the trailerable sport fishing boats around here don't have radar but those guys go out in anything.* We do in our 17' Arima.* Nobody's down at the boat launch on a foggy or misty day saying, "Sorry, you can't go out in that, you don't have radar."

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your question.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 02:48:08 PM

 

[markpierce]

An operating radar system is not required.

Colregs:

Rule 19(b) (limited visibility): Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A powerdriven vessel shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.

I interpret the above to mean one has to be ready to move early enough to avoid collision.
Rule 5 (look-out): Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

I interpret the above to mean one must use radar, if it is onboard, at least*during times of limited visibility.

One is partly responsible regardless if there is a collision.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 10th of February 2011 03:15:04 PM

 

[dwhatty]

markpierce wrote:

*

An operating radar system is not required.

Colregs:

Rule 19(b) (limited visibility): Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A powerdriven vessel shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.

I interpret the above to mean one has to be ready to move early enough to avoid collision.
Rule 5 (look-out): Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

I interpret the above to mean one must use radar, if it is onboard, at least*during times of limited visibility.

One is partly responsible regardless if there is a collision.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 10th of February 2011 03:15:04 PM
*

Are those champagne flutes?

*

 

[markpierce]

dwhatty wrote:

Are those champagne flutes?

Yes, Kahlenberg D-1 champagne flutes.* Triple-plated even!

*

 

[Arctic Traveller]

Old Stone wrote:

Marin - I'm going to let the comment about "if you read the Colregs-always a good idea" pass this time. Watch it next time though.

*

I think you might be a little over sensitive here.* The trouble with this type of communication is that sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is smiling, laughing, serious, or what ever.* The smiling emoticon made be believe he was making a bit of a joke. I certainly didn't get the feeling he was poking you in the chest, giving you a lecture or calling you a dummy.* Still, some folks are easily offended, and that should be taken into consideration when posting I guess.

. My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.
I've never heard of a legal requirement to have one aboard a small vessel (a voluntarily equipped one that is) Your not even required to have a VHF (but if you do, your required to monitor ch16 while underway and not using another channel)............Arctic Traveller
*

*

 

[Marin]

Arctic Traveller wrote:1. I certainly didn't get the feeling he was poking you in the chest, giving you a lecture or calling you a dummy.* Still, some folks are easily offended, and that should be taken into consideration when posting I guess.
*
2. Your not even required to have a VHF (but if you do, your required to monitor ch16 while underway and not using another channel)............Arctic Traveller
*

1.* This is true-- I wasn't trying to imply that Old Stone himself needed to go*read the Colregs as I assume from his experience that he is more than familiar enough with them.* It was just a "finger of speech" as Pogo would say.

2.* There is a very active participant on the T&T list who posts under the*name Rudy & Jill who built their boat and is an active full-time cruiser of the ICW and other east-coast waters.* According to him, their boat does not have a VHF radio and he says he sees no need for one.* From what I have gathered from his and others' comments, Rudy is a very experienced boater.* But he has his own way of approaching boating.* He's been taken to task from time to time by some of the T&T participants for his refusal to have or use a radio, which he takes in good humor. But he has his reasons for not wanting to use a radio.

And while some of you may wish to comment on Rudy's decision, I suggest you take this up directly with him over on T&T.* You're not going to get any argument from me about the value and wisdom*of having and using a VHF.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 08:46:42 PM

 

[hollywood8118]

Marin wrote:

2.* There is a very active participant on the T&T list who posts under the*name Rudy & Jill who built their boat and is an active full-time cruiser of the ICW and other east-coast waters.* According to him, their boat does not have a VHF radio and he says he sees no need for one.* From what I have gathered from his and others' comments, Rudy is a very experienced boater.* But he has his own way of approaching boating.* He's been taken to task from time to time by some of the T&T participants for his refusal to have or use a radio, which he takes in good humor. But he has his reasons for not wanting to use a radio.

And while some of you may wish to comment on Rudy's decision, I suggest you take this up directly with him over on T&T.* You're not going to get any argument from me about the value and wisdom*of having and using a VHF.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 08:46:42 PM
*

HOLLYWOOD

*

 

[FF]

IN the ICW with no VHF , how would one call the USCG to phone the bridge tender to to wake him up?

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

fRED HE SAID HE SAILED WITHOUT vhf. He didn't say he sailed without a Kahlenburg horn and shotgun.
There are no requirements to have radar aboard. If it is aboard it MUST be used for collision avoidance.

 

[Nomad Willy]

This is the first time I've looked at this thread as I thought "who cares about horns" "just a bunch of guys drawing attention to themselves".
But the thread was a hoot untill Jeff threw up a bucket cold and serious stuff but it was (as someone else stated) very interesting. Anyway I read the whole post but I have a bit of cold water to throw in myself.
Don't you guys feel a bit guilty making your little boat sound like a monster ship? Great at the yacht club but in open water and limited visibility it would seem a joke would be out of place at best. I think the sound of one's horn should match the size of the boat. Well ..sorta.

 

[Marin]

Sailor of Fortune wrote:If it is aboard it MUST be used for collision avoidance.

This is where the controversy comes in.* The wording of the Colregs doesn't quite say this.* I don't know why whoever wrote this particular section was so vague.* When I asked the USCG folks I talked to some time ago exactly what was meant by--

Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.
--they said that you have to use all the means available to you that you deem are appropriate to use under those conditions.* By that interpretation, if you deem the use of radar is inappropriate (or not necessary or whatever) you don't have to use it.* You may be a fool, you may get run down, you will be found seriously at fault if there is an incident or accident, but according to the explanation I was given by these particular* people, nothing in the Colregs specifically says "You Have To Use Radar."

In my opinion as a person who writes as part of my job the problem is that word "appropriate" because it leaves it open to individual interpretation what's appropriate and what isn't.* It would have been far better, I think, if they had said "...all available means." and left it at that.

Even better would have been a statement clearly saying that if you have radar you have to use it either all the time or whenever the visibility is below minimums and then defined the minimums.* And defining minimums is not a rat's nest--- the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) define visibility minimums in simple, concise charts.* No reason the same thing couldn't be done for the marine world.


-- Edited by Marin on Friday 11th of February 2011 01:54:51 PM

 

[Arctic Traveller]

nomadwilly wrote:

But the thread was a hoot untill Jeff threw up a bucket cold and serious stuff but it was (as someone else stated) very interesting.

Hummm, I don't remember throwing up, much less a cold bucket. I think we better get to the bottom of this.* I know where you live, and I'm headed there soon.* It might take a bottle of single malt to get to the bottom of this.* (not too much though, I don't want to end up throwing up)..............Arctic Traveller

 

[markpierce]

nomadwilly wrote:
Don't you guys feel a bit guilty making your little boat sound like a monster ship? Great at the yacht club but in open water and limited visibility it would seem a joke would be out of place at best. I think the sound of one's horn should match the size of the boat. Well ..sorta.

Boat/ship length determines frequencies and volumes.* What I don't want is a rinky-dink horn.* If not heard, one is just playing boats.*

*The 1972 Intemational Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea ('72 COLREGS), ANNEX III, entered into force by the International Maritime Organization (IMO), specifies the technical requirements for sound signal appliances on marine vessels. Frequency range and minimum decibel level output is specified for each class of ship. The class is determined by the vessel's length. Sound pressure level intensity at a distance of one meter from the horn is stipulated, which determines the theoretical range of the horn, although the actual range will, under many conditions, be much greater than this. This information is displayed in the following table:

<table border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="width:400px;"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#2266a7"><td align="center" valign="middle"><b class="white">Whistle Class[/b]
</td><td align="center" valign="middle"><b class="white">Length of Vessel in Meters[/b]
</td><td align="center" valign="middle"><b class="white">Limits of Fundamental Frequency[/b]
</td><td align="center" valign="middle"><b class="white">Minimum Sound Pressure Level Measured in 1/3 Octave Band at 1 Meter[/b]
</td><td align="center" valign="middle"><b class="white">Audibility Range in Nautical Miles[/b]
</td></tr><tr><td align="center">I</td><td align="center">> 200</td><td align="center">70-200 Hz</td><td align="center">143 dB</td><td align="center">2</td></tr><tr><td align="center">II</td><td align="center">75 -200</td><td align="center">130-350 Hz</td><td align="center">138 dB</td><td align="center">1.5</td></tr><tr><td align="center">III</td><td align="center">20 - 75</td><td align="center">250-700 Hz</td><td align="center">130 dB</td><td align="center">1</td></tr><tr><td align="center">IV</td><td align="center">< 20</td><td align="center">250-700 Hz</td><td align="center">120 dB</td><td align="center">0.5</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[skipperdude]

The guys at Furuno said that if you want your radar to last .* USE IT.

They wear out quicker*through disuse.

Don't know if that applies to horns.

SD

 

[Nomad Willy]

AT,
It was on page four. When you told the story about the guy in the stern and the other boat came out of the fog******* ...........
Throwing up the bucket of stuff***** .....not up chucking!
Holy cow Mark. I had no idea. It just seemed to me that the boat should match the horn.
My horn is one of those little things that look like a reddi whip bottle. But up here we use horns about as much as Marin does. I have dual trumpet horns somewhere but it;s way down on the list.

 

[markpierce]

nomadwilly wrote:

My horn is one of those little things that look like a reddi whip bottle. But up here we use horns about as much as Marin does. I have dual trumpet horns somewhere but it;s way down on the list.

Eric, perhaps I do have a horn fetish.

*