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Old 02-01-2011, 07:22 PM   #21
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

Hey Ted - You'd better hope Jay Leno doesn't see that horn! The way he love steam equipment he wouldn't stop 'till you sold it to him. Did you salvage this yourself?
Jay Leno is out of luck. Recovered the horn 10 years ago after several dives to free it from the wreck.

Ted

*
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Old 02-05-2011, 10:20 PM   #22
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RE: Horn fetish?

I love my horn.* I honk it any time a PWC gets within 100 feet of my vessell.
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Old 02-06-2011, 05:03 AM   #23
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RE: Horn fetish?

I love my horn. I honk it any time a PWC gets within 100 feet of my vessell.



A deck mounted swivel gun is even more fun!
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:36 AM   #24
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RE: Horn fetish?

Remember, you guys made me do this.

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Old 02-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #25
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
FF wrote:
A deck mounted swivel gun is even more fun!
Wouldn't a pressurized water*system designed for washing deck and anchor have other useful purposes such*as keeping PWCs at distance?

*
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Old 02-06-2011, 11:48 AM   #26
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RE: Horn fetish?

I also have Kahleberg Horns (D0A) and am very happy with them.* Kahlenberg makes a 'chimetone' horn with several trumpets that will play a tune; if you visit their website you can hear a sound sample.* They also sell a neat switch that will automatically sound the required signals (underway, stopped etc.)* Their products and customer service are excellent.* Just sayin' as I have no other relationship with them execpt as a happy customer.
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Old 02-06-2011, 09:15 PM   #27
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
Avista wrote:

I also have Kahleberg Horns (D0A) and am very happy with them.* Kahlenberg makes a 'chimetone' horn with several trumpets that will play a tune; if you visit their website you can hear a sound sample.*
Regarding my D-1 horns: "Kahlenberg Chimetone Air Horns all utilize more than one projector or trumpet in their design. These projectors each produce a different fundamental frequency which combine to produce powerful, distinctive, musical chords. To hear a Chimetone Air Horn is to realize that the sound of a vessel can be one of its most impressive aspects. The Model D-1 Air Horn is designed for the most discriminating yachtsman. It is made entirely of bronze and brass, and is triple plated for a deep chrome finish."

Gee,*now I'm described as*"discriminating."


*
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:32 AM   #28
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
markpierce wrote:


Avista wrote:

I also have Kahleberg Horns (D0A) and am very happy with them.* Kahlenberg makes a 'chimetone' horn with several trumpets that will play a tune; if you visit their website you can hear a sound sample.*
To hear a Chimetone Air Horn is to realize that the sound of a vessel can be one of its most impressive aspects. The Model D-1 Air Horn is designed for the most discriminating yachtsman. It is made entirely of bronze and brass, and is triple plated for a deep chrome finish."

Gee,*now I'm described as*"discriminating."
I heard they are going through a re write of their promo as we speak.

*
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:22 PM   #29
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RE: Horn fetish?

Just be careful who you discriminate against!
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:26 AM   #30
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Horn fetish?

Quote:
I'd betcha*12-plus-meter boaters don't bother, or for*that matter, most anyone*making any sound, such as a horn with timer or not.
I too have found this to be true, but there is a huge potential cost of ignoring the Colregs.* In almost any collision, there will be a Coast Guard investigation, at which time questions will be asked that may not have a correct answer.* As an example, (this happened to a friend a couple years ago)* While on a charter fishing trip, drifting off shore and assisting clients on deck, fog was coming and going.* Suddenly, coming out of the fog, a 32ft yacht appeared, and was headed directly for the fishing boat.* Before the captain could react, the yacht hit the fishing boat in the Stb, aft corner.* Amazingly, there didn't appear to be anyone in the pilot house of the yacht until after the collision.* Three people went to the hospital, but fortunately no one was seriously injured, and neither boat sank.* During the investigation, my friend was asked if he saw the approaching boat on his radar, and of course he didn't since he was on the back deck.* He was also asked if he was sounding the appropriate sound signals, which he wasn't.* When asked why, he replied that the fog was coming and going quickly and it didn't seem necessary, In addition, he probably made a mistake when he mentioned that the responding C/G vessels were not sounding any signals either as they arrived.* He was cited for failure to maintain a proper lookout, and not sounding the proper sound signals.* This was despite the fact that he was drifting with the engine off, and the other boat was on autopilot with no one in the pilot house.*

This is something I always mention to my students while on training charters.* If you are involved in a collision, you WILL be found in violation of one or more rules, no matter what the circumstances.* The fewer rules you have broken, the less liability you will have, but it's guaranteed you will have violated at least one, Rule 2, General Responsibility, or as it's sometimes known, the General Prudential rule.*

In broad terms, Rule 2 states that even if you are doing everything correctly according to the rules, should a collision be imminent, you are required to depart from the rules and do what ever is needed to avoid that collision.* If your in a collision, you obviously violated Rule 2.*

Having said all that, my practice is to always use the fog horn should I determine that a condition of restricted visibility exists* (determining THAT is a whole different subject, but basically if you think visibility may be restricted, it is).* In addition, I log use of the horn in the log book, so I can prove that I make a regular practice of using it should a question arise.* As for other sound signals, unless I can see clearly in all directions, I sound the appropriate signal when backing out of a slip, rounding a blind corner or when ever deemed necessary.* As for other maneuvering signals, I rarely use them, as I doubt one in a hundred boaters would understand them. Instead, I make sure there is more than enough room to maneuver, or I make a passing agreement on the radio (also fraught with dangers of it's own).* Still, should a colision result.......well you get the idea.* ..........................Arctic Traveller

*


-- Edited by Arctic Traveller on Thursday 10th of February 2011 12:31:01 PM
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:33 PM   #31
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Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:I know the horns are required in a fog, but is there any requirement for radar?
If you read the Colregs--- always a good idea --- it says something to the effect that when underway a vessel should be using "all appropriate means" of collision avoidance that are available on the vessel.* I'm paraphrasing and I'm sure someone will post the actual text.*

It's a bit controversial in its interpretation.* Some people interpret this to mean that if your boat has radar you must have it on at all times underway regardless of the visibility conditions.* After asking for an interpretation from some USCG folks a number of years ago, I don't believe this is the case.* The language does not say if you have it you have to be using it at all times.* It says that you have to be using all the means of collision avoidance that are appropriate to the circumstances.

In other words, it's up to you to determine what is appropriate under the circumstances..* Obviously, fog requires the use of radar if you have it (although it's still up to you whether you choose to use it).* If the visibility is great, it's still up to you whether to use the radar or not.

HOWEVER....... if you manage to run into someone in good visibility or bad, or someone runs into you, and it is found that you did not have your radar on and were monitoring it, then you are in violation* because hitting another boat is a circumstance that radar could have prevented.* Therefore, since you didn't have it on and you hit someone or were hit, you were not using all the available means of collision avoidance relevant to the situation.

When we had the old Raytheon 2600 that came with the boat, a CRT unit that required the use of a hood, we only used it when the visibility was poor in an effort to maximize the life of the tube. When it began to fail we replaced it with a Furuno NavNet with a daylight LCD screen, and this we have on whenever we are running. Not because it's necessary in good visibility but so that we remain totally familiar with what targets look like on the display and can practice adjusting the gain controls to ensure that we see everything around us.* Then if we do get into fog it's a no-brainer transiition to "driving on instruments" for us because we'd been monitoring the radar all along as well as following a GPS plotter course.

Bottom line is that if you have radar you don't have to have it on when you're running.* But should you have an accident or incident that could have been prevented by having your radar on AND monitoring it, you will be found neglegent of at least that aspect of the Colregs regardless of who caused the accident and what the visibility was at the time.* You're not going to be pulled over and given a ticket if you're running your boat in good or bad visiblity with the radar off.* Nobody's gonna know.* It's all about what happens if you have a collision.* That's from the perspective of the rules.* Common sense is another matter--- some people have it, some people don't.







-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 01:40:53 PM
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:19 PM   #32
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Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.
It's actually not a nice, simple question because there is no nice, simple answer (unfortunately)** As I stated the use of radar is not required-- ever--- according to the interpretation I was given by the USCG folks I talked to.** But-- as I said--- some people interpret the wording of the Colregs differently, and read it to mean that the use of radar IS required if you have it.

So the answer to your question will be based on how you interpret the wording in the Colregs.

Your question has come up countless times in forums like T&T and the Grand Banks owners group and in the end, it all comes down to interpretation.* Unfortunatly the Colreg wording can be taken either way* and it has been the source of discussions that went on for days.* You get as many people saying you legally HAVE to use your radar in fog (or anything else) as say you SHOULD use your radar in fog but you don't HAVE to.

How to you interpret the wording?



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 02:26:28 PM
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:21 PM   #33
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

Marin - I'm going to let the comment about "if you read the Colregs-always a good idea" pass this time. Watch it next time though. Now, even YOU just answered that radar is not specifically required, but use of it is. My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.
My take is if you got it use it and you are covered.* The other thought I have is the more you have it on the better you can get with it.

Truth be known it would depend on just how good your lawyer really is at convincing the judge that you were A: not at fault, B:You did everything possible to avoid the accident or C:*all of the above.

*
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:29 PM   #34
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
JD wrote:My take is if you got it use it and you are covered.
While it's debatable if this is an accurate, legal interpretation of the Colregs it is certainly the smartest course of action to follow in my opinion.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:46 PM   #35
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Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

But my original question was simply "is radar required". In other words is a vessel required to be equiped with a radar unit?
Oh.* That's not how your question read to me.* I thought you meant is radar required in fog.* But does a vessel HAVE to have a radar unit?* No, unless a very large number of boats--- big and small--- in our marina are all illegal.* The Colregs say that you have to use every means available to avoid a collision.* If you don't have radar and want to boat in the fog, there's nothing illegal about that because radar is not available to you.

Most of the trailerable sport fishing boats around here don't have radar but those guys go out in anything.* We do in our 17' Arima.* Nobody's down at the boat launch on a foggy or misty day saying, "Sorry, you can't go out in that, you don't have radar."

I'm sorry I misinterpreted your question.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 02:48:08 PM
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #36
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Horn fetish?

An operating radar system is not required.

Colregs:

Rule 19(b) (limited visibility): Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A powerdriven vessel shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.

I interpret the above to mean one has to be ready to move early enough to avoid collision.
Rule 5 (look-out): Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

I interpret the above to mean one must use radar, if it is onboard, at least*during times of limited visibility.

One is partly responsible regardless if there is a collision.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 10th of February 2011 03:15:04 PM
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:55 PM   #37
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
markpierce wrote:

*

An operating radar system is not required.

Colregs:

Rule 19(b) (limited visibility): Every vessel shall proceed at a safe speed adapted to the prevailing circumstances and conditions of restricted visibility. A powerdriven vessel shall have her engines ready for immediate maneuver.

I interpret the above to mean one has to be ready to move early enough to avoid collision.
Rule 5 (look-out): Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

I interpret the above to mean one must use radar, if it is onboard, at least*during times of limited visibility.

One is partly responsible regardless if there is a collision.

-- Edited by markpierce on Thursday 10th of February 2011 03:15:04 PM
*
Are those champagne flutes?

*
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Old 02-10-2011, 04:30 PM   #38
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
dwhatty wrote:

Are those champagne flutes?


Yes, Kahlenberg D-1 champagne flutes.* Triple-plated even!

*
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:46 PM   #39
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RE: Horn fetish?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

Marin - I'm going to let the comment about "if you read the Colregs-always a good idea" pass this time. Watch it next time though.

*

I think you might be a little over sensitive here.* The trouble with this type of communication is that sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is smiling, laughing, serious, or what ever.* The smiling emoticon made be believe he was making a bit of a joke. I certainly didn't get the feeling he was poking you in the chest, giving you a lecture or calling you a dummy.* Still, some folks are easily offended, and that should be taken into consideration when posting I guess.

. My question was not about whether to "use it", it was "is radar required". Nice, simple question that doesn't require a lecture.
I've never heard of a legal requirement to have one aboard a small vessel (a voluntarily equipped one that is) Your not even required to have a VHF (but if you do, your required to monitor ch16 while underway and not using another channel)............Arctic Traveller
*
*
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:44 PM   #40
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Quote:
Arctic Traveller wrote:1. I certainly didn't get the feeling he was poking you in the chest, giving you a lecture or calling you a dummy.* Still, some folks are easily offended, and that should be taken into consideration when posting I guess.
*
2. Your not even required to have a VHF (but if you do, your required to monitor ch16 while underway and not using another channel)............Arctic Traveller
*
1.* This is true-- I wasn't trying to imply that Old Stone himself needed to go*read the Colregs as I assume from his experience that he is more than familiar enough with them.* It was just a "finger of speech" as Pogo would say.

2.* There is a very active participant on the T&T list who posts under the*name Rudy & Jill who built their boat and is an active full-time cruiser of the ICW and other east-coast waters.* According to him, their boat does not have a VHF radio and he says he sees no need for one.* From what I have gathered from his and others' comments, Rudy is a very experienced boater.* But he has his own way of approaching boating.* He's been taken to task from time to time by some of the T&T participants for his refusal to have or use a radio, which he takes in good humor. But he has his reasons for not wanting to use a radio.

And while some of you may wish to comment on Rudy's decision, I suggest you take this up directly with him over on T&T.* You're not going to get any argument from me about the value and wisdom*of having and using a VHF.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 10th of February 2011 08:46:42 PM
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