Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 07-05-2017, 07:11 PM   #1
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Help w/ battery challenge

Have a bit of a challenge finding replacements for my 12 volt house batteries. The boat came standard with two Exide ER660 batteries, placed side-by-side. The current Exide batteries are rated at (C20) 140 Ah and CCA (EN) 750 A. You can see the spec on them at:

http://detabatteries.com/wp-content/...arine-spec.pdf

The issue is that the batteries are European sized and just fit (within a battery tray/box) into the 16.5" wide space between the engines (they are 7-3/8" wide). The American 4D batteries are too wide to fit side-by-side since they are typically each at least 8.5" wide. And shipping the Exide batteries from Europe doesn't seem to be a realistic option.

The existing space I have to fit the new house batteries is approx. 16" wide x 25" long x 8" high.

I've heard a proposed solution of placing 2 AGM batteries on their side, but I haven't seen any 4D batteries that are low-profile enough to work in the space when placed on their side.

Any other ideas? Are there other battery types I should consider? I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.

Lastly, there is a small chance that I might actually have 17" width, in which case, there is a small chance that two standard 4D batteries might fit. However, I don't think I'd be able to fit a single human hair between them. I won't know until I remove the battery box to get a more exact measure.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Best,
Mike
__________________
Advertisement

MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 07:54 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
City: Wherever the boat is
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Silver Quarter
Vessel Model: Bayliner 3870
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 456
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
Are there other battery types I should consider?
uhh. flooded. If you look at total cost per lifetime watt hour of a well maintained bank.. I'm not sure you can do better. If that opens up more options for your form factor, which I bet it does, all the better..
__________________

kev_rm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 08:32 PM   #3
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev_rm View Post
uhh. flooded. If you look at total cost per lifetime watt hour of a well maintained bank.. I'm not sure you can do better. If that opens up more options for your form factor, which I bet it does, all the better..
I think all the 4D batteries, whether they are flooded or AGM, are similarly sized.
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:18 PM   #4
Guru
 
Xsbank's Avatar
 
City: Pender Harbour, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gwaii Haanas
Vessel Model: Custom Aluminum 52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 3,241
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.

What are these for, starting? Or is this your entire house bank? If for starting, 2 31s from Costco. If house, try fitting in some 2 volt batteries?
__________________
Don't believe everything that you think.
What are we offended about today?
Xsbank is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:29 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.

What are these for, starting? Or is this your entire house bank? If for starting, 2 31s from Costco. If house, try fitting in some 2 volt batteries?


Entire house bank.
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:46 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Martin J's Avatar
 
City: Mt Crested Butte
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Artemis
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 67
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 360
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
I would get the specs of a range of the various group batteries and try for 4 x 12v batteries. You may get a better fit with a change of thought process. You woud certsainly get them in it's just the CCA values etc and storage values etc.
Martin J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 09:51 PM   #7
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin J View Post
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
I would get the specs of a range of the various group batteries and try for 4 x 12v batteries. You may get a better fit with a change of thought process. You woud certsainly get them in it's just the CCA values etc and storage values etc.

In the attached photo, at the very edges of the photo you can see the wood blocks that support the floorboard covering the batteries. I could add some wood shims to raise the floorboard to gain a few inches. Of course, it would make an already tight space in terms of headroom (or lack thereof) even tighter. But it's an option! Thanks.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_8932.JPG
Views:	87
Size:	150.0 KB
ID:	66458
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 10:00 PM   #8
Guru
 
City: Hampton, va
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Didi Mau
Vessel Model: 2003 Ocean Alexander 456
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 933
Take a look

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
Have a bit of a challenge finding replacements for my 12 volt house batteries. The boat came standard with two Exide ER660 batteries, placed side-by-side. The current Exide batteries are rated at (C20) 140 Ah and CCA (EN) 750 A. You can see the spec on them at:

http://detabatteries.com/wp-content/...arine-spec.pdf

The issue is that the batteries are European sized and just fit (within a battery tray/box) into the 16.5" wide space between the engines (they are 7-3/8" wide). The American 4D batteries are too wide to fit side-by-side since they are typically each at least 8.5" wide. And shipping the Exide batteries from Europe doesn't seem to be a realistic option.

The existing space I have to fit the new house batteries is approx. 16" wide x 25" long x 8" high.

I've heard a proposed solution of placing 2 AGM batteries on their side, but I haven't seen any 4D batteries that are low-profile enough to work in the space when placed on their side.

Any other ideas? Are there other battery types I should consider? I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.

Lastly, there is a small chance that I might actually have 17" width, in which case, there is a small chance that two standard 4D batteries might fit. However, I don't think I'd be able to fit a single human hair between them. I won't know until I remove the battery box to get a more exact measure.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Best,
Mike


The Best Marine Batteries Available | Energy1 AGM Batteries


I have used these batteries in my last boat worth great results:.
Gordon J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 10:14 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Martin J's Avatar
 
City: Mt Crested Butte
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Artemis
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 67
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 360
Interesting problem, If you go with Group 27 4x you have some 360 amps cycle , If you fit 4 x T105 you 'll have 450 amphour. But will have to raise the cover

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...oup-sizes.html
Martin J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2017, 11:09 PM   #10
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin J View Post
Interesting problem, If you go with Group 27 4x you have some 360 amps cycle , If you fit 4 x T105 you 'll have 450 amphour. But will have to raise the cover

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/tool...oup-sizes.html
I still might need to raise the cover a bit, but these may fit pretty well:

https://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/t27-agm.html
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 08:06 AM   #11
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
I think all the 4D batteries, whether they are flooded or AGM, are similarly sized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
Yes, 4D is 4D. Its the box size.

I dunno about that. A few weeks ago I was looking at Trojan G27 specs (for a different discussion), and even within the same brand, they all weren't the same exact sizes.

Might be worth checking specs for many brands of 4Ds.

Also, I thought Exide sells batteries here in the US? Would they not have some ER660s (D04 profile, perhaps meant to be similar to BCI Group 4D) available somewhere here? And/or maybe Beneteau has a US source, or stockpile?

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 08:18 AM   #12
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,656
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
I'd like to go with AGM batteries and I'd like to have at least as much power as I had with the existing batteries (which are now dead). And I'd like to keep within the space the current batteries are located to avoid what I perceive to be a more costly project.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin J View Post
Do you have an extra 2" of height? You coudld get 4x t105's (6vdc) in there with room to spare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
In the attached photo, at the very edges of the photo you can see the wood blocks that support the floorboard covering the batteries. I could add some wood shims to raise the floorboard to gain a few inches. Of course, it would make an already tight space in terms of headroom (or lack thereof) even tighter. But it's an option! Thanks.

The Exide specs say the EWR660s give 140-Ah at the 20-hour rate, so 2x would be about 280-Ah. If 4x 6V golf cart batteries would fit in there, that'd be about 220-Ah/pair wired in series/parallel, about 440-Ah total.

I've read that Lifeline GPL-4CT AGMs are slightly shorter than Trojan T-105s.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 08:50 AM   #13
Scraping Paint
 
City: CT
Country: US
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 963
Someone should make a website where you enter the available space and it spits back the various size options.

http://www.batteryweb.com/bci.cfm

I don't think Exide is in the same true deep cycling league as Trojan, never mind Lifeline. AGM not needing watering maybe worth the tighter fit, but you really want to be sure your charging / usage patterns will maximize their longevity to make that investment.

4D, any other "automotive" group sizes like 27/31, in fact 12V itself, makes it more important to go with a really trusted vendor, with Rolls / Surette at the top, if getting true deep cycling is important to you. That gets expensive.

Exploring combos of 2V, 4V & especially 6V gives you that assurance regardless of brand-name if money is important.

Sam's Club Duracell/Deka East Penn comes in GC-2 6V as well as EGC2 and GC12, and the Costco Interstates are only slightly less excellent, check out the local Interstate dealer for GC options only

For sure also look at Trojan T-105 also J150 or T1275, L16s especially RE's
john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 10:36 AM   #14
Guru
 
mbevins's Avatar
 
City: Windsor
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Keeper IV
Vessel Model: 44 Viking ACMY
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,307
Check out the Victron line of batteries. They are available here in the US and have metric measures. I use their "Telecom" line of batteries as I have a space issue.

I their AGM SUPERCYCLE line might fit your needs.
__________________
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

mbevins is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 11:29 AM   #15
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbevins View Post
Check out the Victron line of batteries. They are available here in the US and have metric measures. I use their "Telecom" line of batteries as I have a space issue.

I their AGM SUPERCYCLE line might fit your needs.


Those look pretty good. Definitely narrower. I'd just have to modify the height of the floorboard. Thx.
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 11:54 AM   #16
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 8,073
My 2 centavos worth

Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.

PM David Hayes, he recently came up with a good solution for his redone battery needs. He's a smart guy, he just got with it!
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 12:35 PM   #17
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
My 2 centavos worth

Forget about your current battery boxes for a moment, err tail wagging the dog. What are the batteries you want to install taking into account loads, charging capability, non odd ball size, cost and longevity. Then redo your boxes to accommodate that selection.

PM David Hayes, he recently came up with a good solution for his redone battery needs. He's a smart guy, he just got with it!
Ha ha, I wish I knew. I've only had the boat for 6 months, it's the first boat I've owned, and the batteries have pretty much been kaput since I've had it. At this point it would simply be nice for all the low batter warning beeps to stop.

So I don't really know what I need. I assume that the load is fairly light. All the kitchen appliances except for the fridge are gas. So the fridge I assume is the primary energy consumer. We will eventually install a TV, but the LED TV's are pretty energy efficient. Beyond that, I can't think of many things that would run on the battery, other than the windlass and lighting.

The boat doesn't have an inverter. If I added that at some point, I suppose I'd have to take into consideration anything I'd plug into the outlets. But for now, those only work when connected to shore power or when the generator is on.

Mike
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 12:46 PM   #18
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 12,741
Greetings,
Mr. 1969. Keep in mind your BILGE PUMPS may run on the same batteries...Much more important that lights, fridge, windlass etc. IMO
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 12:55 PM   #19
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Speedy Charlotte
Vessel Model: Beneteau Swift Trawler 44
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 677
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
Mr. 1969. Keep in mind your BILGE PUMPS may run on the same batteries...Much more important that lights, fridge, windlass etc. IMO


Great point!
MichaelB1969 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2017, 01:40 PM   #20
Scraping Paint
 
City: CT
Country: US
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB1969 View Post
I've only had the boat for 6 months, it's the first boat I've owned, and the batteries have pretty much been kaput since I've had it. At this point it would simply be nice for all the low batter warning beeps to stop.

So I don't really know what I need. I assume that the load is fairly light. All the kitchen appliances except for the fridge are gas. So the fridge I assume is the primary energy consumer. We will eventually install a TV, but the LED TV's are pretty energy efficient
By definition any fridge running 24x7 is not a light load. Lights can also be significant, as with electronics. Bilge and windlass are huge if run at all frequently.

The size storage bank you need in AH, relative to that daily load budget, can vary a lot depending on your charge sources, how you are getting them back to full.

Which for bank health should be 100% full, not just close to full, and ideally every cycle, not just sometimes. Another key is not running them down below 50%.

Which brings up, how do you monitor your SoC?

And do you think you can modify your space to allow for a different battery layout?
__________________

john61ct is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×