Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-20-2019, 04:00 PM   #41
Guru
 
firstbase's Avatar
 
City: Jupiter, Florida
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Black Eyed Susan
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42' Classic
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
This is great, in 5 years or so when youíve all sold your boats there will be a flurry of new ďPOĒ posts here about how all this crap soldered wiring needed to be pulled out!
It's the Circle of Life XS (Lion King music playing in the background). Insurance that TF is alive and well for years to come.

I think you are all crazy because, as any truly educated owner such as myself knows, Wire Nuts are where it's at. The wave of the future.

__________________
Advertisement

__________________
Hal
BLACK EYED SUSAN
Grand Banks 42 Classic
firstbase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 04:05 PM   #42
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
Yes, my boat had some wire nuts in it when I bought it. I have done a bunch of electrical repairs. My boat has 2 30 amp inlets but it only had 1 30 amp main breaker... But that was from the factory since I inspected another boat like mine and it was wired the same way.
__________________

__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 04:22 PM   #43
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
Yes, my boat had some wire nuts in it when I bought it. I have done a bunch of electrical repairs. My boat has 2 30 amp inlets but it only had 1 30 amp main breaker... But that was from the factory since I inspected another boat like mine and it was wired the same way.
Is that one breaker identified as 30amp
__________________
Did Noah have a get home-engine?
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 04:33 PM   #44
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
Yes, it was. The second 30 amp was directly wired to the main bus. I found a Carver last month from the 1980s that was wired just like that also.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 04:57 PM   #45
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: AICW
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 20,322
Pretty sure ABYC isn't against soldering so much as long as it is not the only form of connection (ie: needs a secondary mechanical connection such as crimping, linemans splice, etc....even just adhesive may meet the requirement if it meets the pull test)... and the whole thing is properly supported.


Also pretty sure the soldered connections are discussed in the NASA performance spec sheets so they aren't against them ether.


And while I think the standard crimps are easiest in may situations...I just think if standards are to be met, they are totally understood and why.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 06:30 PM   #46
Guru
 
OldDan1943's Avatar
 
City: Aventura FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Kinja
Vessel Model: American Tug 34 #116
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 4,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
Yes, it was. The second 30 amp was directly wired to the main bus. I found a Carver last month from the 1980s that was wired just like that also.
If the boat was in compliance when built, I guess everything is fine and acceptable.
__________________
Did Noah have a get home-engine?
OldDan1943 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 06:32 PM   #47
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
No, it wasnít fine. There was no overcurrent protection on one of the inlets. Since a lot of boat fires start in the area of shore power inlets it could very possibly be a cause of a fire.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 07:52 PM   #48
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 21
heat shrink solder type connectors

Ok, I bought a "kit" of these like others on the forum. I never intended these as a replacement for anything that would take any significant load but instead as a replacement for crimp connectors used on "instrumentation" type wires used in integrating devices together. Like those sub 22 G wires manufacturers use in their wiring for NMEA 0183 devices. I've not used these for that but know that the crimp type connectors leave a bunch to be desired. I usually use a screw terminal block for these but that means enclosing same in some sort of water proof box. I thought that with proper strain relief in these types of applications this might work. Anyone tried this? and if so what type of strain relief did you come up with?

RB Cooper
rbcooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 08:21 PM   #49
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
The really small wires are a PITA to make connections. I usually use a pink connector and spcut a very short piece of copper wire. Put the small wire along with the extra wire in the connector and crimp it. Then heat shrink it and squeeze the end of the shrink and seal the end up. Not ideal. Does anyone have a really good way?
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2019, 09:40 PM   #50
Senior Member
 
localboy's Avatar
 
City: Lake Stevens, WA via Honolulu
Country: USA
Vessel Name: 'Au Kai (Ocean Traveler)
Vessel Model: C-Dory 25
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 204
On really small gauge wire (22, 24, 26) like that used for gauges, dash lights etc, I've used these:


https://www.posi-products.com/positwist.html

https://www.posi-products.com/posilock.html
localboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2019, 12:40 PM   #51
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
Boating Magazine Pull Test

In the July issue Boating Magazine they did a test of the self solder and seal connectors. They addressed them again in the November issue that arrived at my home today. The point was brought up that solder is not allowed to be the sole connection per ABYC recommendations. 16 gauge wire must be able to hold a 15 pound pull and 10 gauge must hold a 40 pound pull. They tested these connectors and found that 16 gauge held 7 pounds and the 10 gauge held 17.5 pounds, both less than 1/2 of the required pulls. They tested Ancor crimp connectors and found 16 held 42 pounds and 10 gauge held 90 pounds. They pulled their original test results from their web site, basically unendorsing the connectors. Maybe this will (or wonít) convince the people that want to use these???
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2019, 08:42 PM   #52
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by localboy View Post
On really small gauge wire (22, 24, 26) like that used for gauges, dash lights etc, I've used these:


https://www.posi-products.com/positwist.html

https://www.posi-products.com/posilock.html
Localboy,

The source doesn't say anything about being water proof. Any problem with corrosion with these?

RB Cooper
rbcooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:12 AM   #53
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Country: usa
Vessel Model: 400 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,245
I could argue to only use quality terminals. I've had great luck with the Ancor heat shrink, crimp terminals..... work great. But expensive.



Anyone have other quality recommendations?
__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:21 AM   #54
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
I only use Ancor brand. There maybe other quality ones out there but every time I have tried a different brand I end up sending them back. I buy them in boxes of 100 so they are more reasonable that way. In the scheme of a boat, they arenít really a significant difference in price.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:24 AM   #55
Guru
 
City: Fairport, NY and Palm Coast, FL
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
No, it wasnít fine. There was no overcurrent protection on one of the inlets. Since a lot of boat fires start in the area of shore power inlets it could very possibly be a cause of a fire.
There most certainly is OCP upstream; it exists at the pedestal. The marine problem is this use of t's, Y's, etc that may connect a 30A boat inlet to a 50A receptacle. Now, that's a problem, that is solved by the boat 30A inlet breaker.
diver dave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:26 AM   #56
Guru
 
Vashon_Trawler's Avatar
 
City: St. Petersburg, Florida
Country: USA
Vessel Name: M/V Sherpa
Vessel Model: 24' Vashon Diesel Cruiser
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 583
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Not sure a Western Union splice satisfys ABYC mechanical requirement (should)...some experts do and then this would be fine if you are confident the solder is really doing it's job.


From Wikipedia...


However, when examined in tensile strength ("pull") tests by NASA on 16 and 22 AW gauge wire, even the short tie variation of the Western Union splice performed well after soldering: when spliced and soldered carefully to standard instructions, the test splices never failed at the splice (instead breaking outside of the splice area), leaving NASA to conclude that "the solder connection at the splice was as strong or stronger than the un-spliced wires."[2][3]

I am a ham radio operator who builds his own wire antenna arrays and equipment and am very familiar with the Western Union Splice. I am not surprised by the NASA results. I have several low band dipole antennas with WU splices and the copper wire would break well before the splice. I don't see anything wrong with a soldered WU splice covered with quality marine shrink tubing. It will be more durable and far stronger than any butt connection!
__________________
ďGo small, go simple, go nowĒ
― Larry Pardey, Cruising in Seraffyn
Vashon_Trawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:33 AM   #57
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
There most certainly is OCP upstream; it exists at the pedestal. The marine problem is this use of t's, Y's, etc that may connect a 30A boat inlet to a 50A receptacle. Now, that's a problem, that is solved by the boat 30A inlet breaker.
Well in a previous boat, I found stray A/C current in the bilge water. In troubleshooting I found the inlet was overheated and further looking found charred wood and charred wiring caused by the inlet resistance. If that inlet had been on this boat without an inlet breaker it may have been a much bigger problem. That is why ABYC recommendations include a main breaker within 10í of the inlet and my current boat didnít have one on the second shore power inlet. It does now! I have found other boats, 1 a Carver, that didnít have a breaker on the second shore power inlet. It is amazing what even some reputable builders do in electrical. And these were from the builders that way.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 10:48 AM   #58
Guru
 
City: Fairport, NY and Palm Coast, FL
Country: United States
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,778
Yep, lots of sins out there from various sources. I would caution on the ability of a magnetic/thermal circuit breaker to protect from connection overheat issues. Unless the actual current drain exceeds the breaker specs, it won't likely trip. Now, there are thermal protection fuse links AT the power inlet that are better positioned to protect against the corroded connection risk.
I won't say you need a Smart power connector to be safe, but read this from them:

The 30 Amp Inlet contains a trip thermostat which cuts power in the
unlikely event of overheating. It’s set to trip at 200ļF (93ļC) - just before
wire insulation begins to soften - and restore the power once it has
cooled back down to a safe temperature of around 120ļF (49ļC).
diver dave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 11:53 AM   #59
Guru
 
kchace's Avatar
 
City: Brookline, NH
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Blue Heaven
Vessel Model: Albin 43 classic double cabin, twin 135 Lehmans
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
The really small wires are a PITA to make connections. I usually use a pink connector and spcut a very short piece of copper wire. Put the small wire along with the extra wire in the connector and crimp it. Then heat shrink it and squeeze the end of the shrink and seal the end up. Not ideal. Does anyone have a really good way?

I don't think I've seen instrument wires smaller than 24. A pink/red splice connector is good for 18-22. So for something like 24, I remove double the insulation and fold the exposed wire in half. This fills the crimp connector enough to get a solid crimp. If smaller than 24, one may need to go to the next size smaller crimp connector which is 22-26 and is yellow. Of course you'd also need a crimper sized for these.



Ken
kchace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2019, 12:21 PM   #60
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 6,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by diver dave View Post
Yep, lots of sins out there from various sources. I would caution on the ability of a magnetic/thermal circuit breaker to protect from connection overheat issues. Unless the actual current drain exceeds the breaker specs, it won't likely trip. Now, there are thermal protection fuse links AT the power inlet that are better positioned to protect against the corroded connection risk.
I won't say you need a Smart power connector to be safe, but read this from them:

The 30 Amp Inlet contains a trip thermostat which cuts power in the
unlikely event of overheating. Itís set to trip at 200ļF (93ļC) - just before
wire insulation begins to soften - and restore the power once it has
cooled back down to a safe temperature of around 120ļF (49ļC).
I have Smart plugs now. I really like them, much more contact area. But unfortunately they donít have the thermal cut out anymore due to the auto reset feature, there was concern that someone could think the power was off and start working on the electrical system and the thermal cut off could auto reset and restore power without the worker being aware or it and getting electrocuted. So they had to delete that feature. They are still worth having due to the increased contact area, easy plug in and positive locking.
__________________

__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×