Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-16-2016, 07:15 AM   #41
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
There should be both a green and a red reverse polarity light. The green will always be on if there is a ground present and will fail in a few years if it's neon. No green light? Missing ground, a dangerous situation.

West Marine sells 120 volt AC LED pilot lights with the resistor built in.

And if you asked for technical advice at Radio Shack, that was your first mistake. The sales people are not engineers, they are not technicians, they are people who scan items and tell you how much you owe. Nothing more.
No, I dont ask for tech advice from RS. I just have red lights for a reversal indication, no green ones a-ok, although I could add them. Boat OEM had only those.

Here is a circuit designed to keep LED connected to main voltages from eventually burning up, if you want it to last for years.
http://www.homemade-circuits.com/201...ed-driver.html

__________________
Advertisement

sdowney717 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 04:18 PM   #42
Veteran Member
 
City: Cape Coral, Fl
Country: Usa
Vessel Name: Panacea
Vessel Model: Novatec 42 Sundeck Trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 52
Problem solved!
The inverter has a relay that switches the neutral wire when the inverter is switched on,
When there is no power to the inverter I.E.: no shore power, it defaults to "inverter mode" which connects ground and neutral (as it should) the problem occurs when the shore power is first connected the transfer relay is in inverter mode which immediately blows ground fault.
We isolated all the inverter load neutrals to a separate bus and no more problems.
Thanks for all the input.
__________________

Panacea123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 04:55 PM   #43
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
No, I dont ask for tech advice from RS. I just have red lights for a reversal indication, no green ones a-ok, although I could add them.
The green one tells you there is an actual ground (not open) so that's kind of important as well.

I suppose one could build a protective circuit for the LEDs, but West Marine sells nice compact ones for just a few dollars each. Hook up the two wires and you're done. Everything is in the package.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 05:03 PM   #44
Veteran Member
 
City: Cape Coral, Fl
Country: Usa
Vessel Name: Panacea
Vessel Model: Novatec 42 Sundeck Trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
The green one tells you there is an actual ground (not open) so that's kind of important as well.

I suppose one could build a protective circuit for the LEDs, but West Marine sells nice compact ones for just a few dollars each. Hook up the two wires and you're done. Everything is in the package.
That's the one thing I have not done yet is reconnect the reverse polarity light
Will post if I have a problem with that, for now all good
Panacea123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 05:07 PM   #45
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,853
Many of the panels I have worked on and the Blues Seas ones I just checked on line (wiring diagrams))...

I thought the green LED just means you have shore power and the main breaker is on.

Maybe that means that the ground is good...but that light is just wired to hot and neutral.....

I must be missing something as shouldn't that light work whether there is a ground or not?
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 05:52 PM   #46
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Many of the panels I have worked on and the Blues Seas ones I just checked on line (wiring diagrams))...

I thought the green LED just means you have shore power and the main breaker is on.

Maybe that means that the ground is good...but that light is just wired to hot and neutral.....

I must be missing something as shouldn't that light work whether there is a ground or not?
It's supposed to he from hot to ground. That way you know you have a ground but that's also why you need neon or LED indicators to avoid a ground fault trip with a GFCI breaker.

Hot to neutral says you have power but doesn't check for a ground.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 06:16 PM   #47
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 4,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panacea123 View Post
Problem solved!
The inverter has a relay that switches the neutral wire when the inverter is switched on,
When there is no power to the inverter I.E.: no shore power, it defaults to "inverter mode" which connects ground and neutral (as it should) the problem occurs when the shore power is first connected the transfer relay is in inverter mode which immediately blows ground fault.
We isolated all the inverter load neutrals to a separate bus and no more problems.
Thanks for all the in put.
Glad to hear you have identified the problem.

Wonder if a certain critic of mine might be willing to give me a little credit on this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
If the selector switch is to off, main breakers are off, then the neutral and positive are supposed to be open. Only not open shore power wire is the ground. Seemed like a good place to start.

What's your suggestion?

Ted
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
I understand that. Some times you see ground and neutral tied together.

Ted
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
The ground is not in the GFI circuit. The GFI measures between hot & neutral.
A GFI or any AC outlet will work without a ground (until there's a problem
Could be a Chinese GFI, lots of fakes out there and a couple of major recalls. You never get enough info on these types of posts to offer a definitive answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
Look BP, I'm not saying it's ok to do, I'm saying these are things you can look for that might explain it on the boat end.
Ted
Ted
__________________
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 06:31 PM   #48
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
It's supposed to he from hot to ground. That way you know you have a ground but that's also why you need neon or LED indicators to avoid a ground fault trip with a GFCI breaker.

Hot to neutral says you have power but doesn't check for a ground.
Well...you might want to write Blue Seas as that is how they are wired at the factory.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 07:51 PM   #49
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 701
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
It's supposed to he from hot to ground. That way you know you have a ground but that's also why you need neon or LED indicators to avoid a ground fault trip with a GFCI breaker.

Hot to neutral says you have power but doesn't check for a ground.
Like psneeld wrote "Well...you might want to write Blue Seas as that is how they are wired at the factory."

Here is the Blue Seas factory wiring diagram for the #8467 AC Panel on my boat. Those green LED's on the main breakers are definitely wired from hot to neutral.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Blue Sea 8467 - AC Panel Wiring.JPG
Views:	19
Size:	71.9 KB
ID:	56416  
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 08:12 PM   #50
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Well...you might want to write Blue Seas as that is how they are wired at the factory.
I'll get right on it.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2016, 10:05 PM   #51
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I'll get right on it.
I actually forgot, I do have a green panel light, it is LED and wired from hot to neutral.
I also have 2 digital AC gauges with voltage and amps, one for each 30 amp shore line. Amps are measured with a sense coil that slips over the wire. They both light up when power is on.
The green light mostly guarantees I have AC power running to the charger, and the panel gauges that I have power running to the distribution panel for each 30 amp line.

Code wise, ground is never supposed to carry any current.
sdowney717 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2016, 10:09 AM   #52
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Well...you might want to write Blue Seas as that is how they are wired at the factory.
After some research, it seems you are confusing a simple pilot or "power on" light with a reverse polarity indicating system.. They are not the same. A pilot light is a nice convenience feature but it is not a safety system.

I have attached two diagrams. On the left is a portion of the actual electrical schematic from my boat. It may be a bit difficult for a layperson to follow because it is a schematic, not a picture of where to connect the wires.

Following the lines, we see that the "OK" light is connected to the line side of the "hot" master breaker and the other terminal of the light is connected to the ground block.

The "REV" light is connected to the line side of the neutral master breaker and the other terminal is also connected to ground (because the lights share a common ground connection).

The light assembly consists of a red and a green neon lamp along with their individual series limiting resistors. Because of the limiting resistors, this circuit should not cause nuisance tripping of a shore GFCI breaker.

On the right is a photo from a Nigel Calder electrical book showing a simplified version of the same circuit. This circuit will test for a reverse polarity or open ground situation, but as drawn, would trip a GFCI. As stated in the caption, series resistors would need to be installed to avoid this problem.


BTW: The most popular accompaniment for crow is hot sauce. Lots of hot sauce.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	circuit 002.jpg
Views:	20
Size:	133.4 KB
ID:	56457   Click image for larger version

Name:	circuit 009.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	115.0 KB
ID:	56458  
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 11:41 AM   #53
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
After some research, it seems you are confusing a simple pilot or "power on" light with a reverse polarity indicating system.. They are not the same. A pilot light is a nice convenience feature but it is not a safety system.

I have attached two diagrams. On the left is a portion of the actual electrical schematic from my boat. It may be a bit difficult for a layperson to follow because it is a schematic, not a picture of where to connect the wires.

Following the lines, we see that the "OK" light is connected to the line side of the "hot" master breaker and the other terminal of the light is connected to the ground block.

The "REV" light is connected to the line side of the neutral master breaker and the other terminal is also connected to ground (because the lights share a common ground connection).

The light assembly consists of a red and a green neon lamp along with their individual series limiting resistors. Because of the limiting resistors, this circuit should not cause nuisance tripping of a shore GFCI breaker.

On the right is a photo from a Nigel Calder electrical book showing a simplified version of the same circuit. This circuit will test for a reverse polarity or open ground situation, but as drawn, would trip a GFCI. As stated in the caption, series resistors would need to be installed to avoid this problem.


BTW: The most popular accompaniment for crow is hot sauce. Lots of hot sauce.
However, connecting a neon or LED permanently from hot to ground and the light lights up does not tell you if that ground can carry any significant current. You could have a very high resistance in the ground wire that will light the bulb just fine, but not function as a safety ground, so a false sense of security that the ground is a good ground.

And ground is never supposed to carry any currents in normal operation.
sdowney717 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 12:29 PM   #54
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
However, connecting a neon or LED permanently from hot to ground and the light lights up does not tell you if that ground can carry any significant current. You could have a very high resistance in the ground wire that will light the bulb just fine, but not function as a safety ground, so a false sense of security that the ground is a good ground.

And ground is never supposed to carry any currents in normal operation.
That's a valid point but in practice there's a limit to what testing we can do each time we pull into a new marina. If we were to impress a full 120 volts on the ground conductor as a test, it could damage other boats on the same circuit and injure or kill anyone who happens to be working on the equipment. The neon lamp provides the same level of testing as the $10 outlet testers from the home center.

Agreed, the ground conductor is not supposed to carry current, it's only there for safety.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 12:32 PM   #55
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
That's a valid point but in practice there's a limit to what testing we can do each time we pull into a new marina. The neon lamp provides the same level of testing as the $10 outlet testers from the home center.

Agreed, the ground conductor is not supposed to carry current, it's only there for safety.
If you could connect say a high amp load like a vacuum cleaner, etc.. temporarily between the hot and the ground, that will tell you if your ground is a good ground. Knowing you have a good ground on a boat would be a good idea. Not that i actually check it myself, I just assume it is, but that might be a tragedy waiting to happen. At least all my outlets are GFCI.
sdowney717 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 12:34 PM   #56
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
If you could connect say a high amp load like a vacuum cleaner, etc.. temporarily between the hot and the ground, that will tell you if your ground is a good ground. Knowing you have a good ground on a boat would be a good idea. Not that i actually check it myself, I just assume it is, but that might be dangerous.
I edited my post while you were posting yours. Read it again.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 12:38 PM   #57
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
I edited my post while you were posting yours. Read it again.
The marina electrical ground system should be the lowest resistance path for current, so should not create a lethal hazard. Otherwise, overload the amps so breaker does an instantaneous trip. Done that plenty of times by accident.
sdowney717 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 02:50 PM   #58
Guru
 
City: East Coast
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
The marina electrical ground system should be the lowest resistance path for current, so should not create a lethal hazard. Otherwise, overload the amps so breaker does an instantaneous trip. Done that plenty of times by accident.
We assume it is and so does the green test light. If it is open (and that's our concern) we can damage equipment or harm people. I don't think we want to intentionally connect it to power.
WesK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 03:18 PM   #59
Guru
 
LarryM's Avatar
 
City: League City, TX
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pelago
Vessel Model: Wellcraft 3300 Coastal
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 701
I recently saw this new Hubbel 30A Marine Circuit Tester. Does this make sense for those who connect to many different power sources?
__________________
Larry
M/V Pelago
LarryM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2016, 03:45 PM   #60
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post
After some research, it seems you are confusing a simple pilot or "power on" light with a reverse polarity indicating system.. They are not the same. A pilot light is a nice convenience feature but it is not a safety system.

I have attached two diagrams. On the left is a portion of the actual electrical schematic from my boat. It may be a bit difficult for a layperson to follow because it is a schematic, not a picture of where to connect the wires.

Following the lines, we see that the "OK" light is connected to the line side of the "hot" master breaker and the other terminal of the light is connected to the ground block.

The "REV" light is connected to the line side of the neutral master breaker and the other terminal is also connected to ground (because the lights share a common ground connection).

The light assembly consists of a red and a green neon lamp along with their individual series limiting resistors. Because of the limiting resistors, this circuit should not cause nuisance tripping of a shore GFCI breaker.

On the right is a photo from a Nigel Calder electrical book showing a simplified version of the same circuit. This circuit will test for a reverse polarity or open ground situation, but as drawn, would trip a GFCI. As stated in the caption, series resistors would need to be installed to avoid this problem.


BTW: The most popular accompaniment for crow is hot sauce. Lots of hot sauce.
I know exactly how these systems work...and I can read basic schematics.

However, I had never seen a green "good ground light" on any boat I have been on and was responding how the permanent green lights on most panels work. Like Blue Seas. These are actual panels and not a drawing in a book. Green usually just means plugged in, breakers on.

Was just pointing that out to the many boaters who might have thought the green light on their panel meant they had a good ground....or even more so, that they were even wired that way. Post 49 clearly shows the way most are wired...green just means power, nothing about grounds..

I would think a full time indicating light, not a temporary test light is a current carrying ground wire....no matter how small the amperage. Till I see it differently in ABYC or other set of codes, I will just watch the crows to see where they land.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012