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Old 03-18-2014, 09:52 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
In the US they are referred to as
"ELCI" ... "Electrical Leakage Circuit Interrupter"

An ELCI (RCD) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection whichever is closer to the shore power connection.
That's what I gathered from my earlier post of BlueSea Systems. I've yet to see one though...makes total sense.
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:52 PM   #22
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BoomerangIII - Yes, you CB as well.

Boatpoker - do you know the GFCI thresholds? I assumed my RCD's (to meet specs noted in post 10 above) would protect crew. If they aren't sufficient, I may need to revisit my installation.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:24 PM   #23
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BoomerangIII - Yes, you CB as well.

Boatpoker - do you know the GFCI thresholds? I assumed my RCD's (to meet specs noted in post 10 above) would protect crew. If they aren't sufficient, I may need to revisit my installation.
GFCI - 5 milliamps

ELCI (RCD) - 40 milliamps

Those are ABYC specs. I don't know if Australian specs are different.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:49 PM   #24
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I'd prefer a few gfci's around the boat vs RCD. That way when it trips, it does not dump the entire boat AC system. And easier to find the fault.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:09 PM   #25
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RCD trips should be very rare anyway. Most likely when you try and use a faulty tool or appliance, or something like a refer kicks in having shorted to ground somehow. So tracing cause should not be too difficult.

The Australian/New Zealand standard says 30 mA for the RCD (and no more than 150 mA for 40 ms, ie action time for switch to operate). Who knows how much will kill you? Next time I'm on the boat I'll have to check what I actually have. I'm now hoping that they are in fact USA GFCI's as they better the required performance.
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:23 AM   #26
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My Hatteras was designed with a master ground fault breaker for each of the three panels. As time went on and one died of old age, and I put more stuff on the inverter panel, I simply put a master GFI outlet (ended up also being a total of three) for each lights and outlet circuit right by that inverter panel. Still had some stuff down below not on the inverter circuit, remained protected by the old panel's GFI CB.

Some ask, why protect an outlet in a "dry" location? This gets answered the first time you plug something into a "dry" location's outlet then drop that something into the bilge or overboard. Or when water intrudes via a leak. It's a boat!
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Old 03-19-2014, 09:43 AM   #27
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Some ask, why protect an outlet in a "dry" location? This gets answered the first time you plug something into a "dry" location's outlet then drop that something into the bilge or overboard. Or when water intrudes via a leak. It's a boat!

Agreed, my opinion ... every outlet on the boat should be GFCI protected.
Electricity and water don't play well together !
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:32 AM   #28
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Thanks for the discussion people. The PO was surprised when the surveyor came up with this statement. "It's a boat! It's surrounded by water." The surveyor indicated GFI and GFCI both were required as the GFI trips more easily. I believe the PO had GFCI installed but I am uncertain about the particulars of these.

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Old 03-19-2014, 11:44 AM   #29
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Thanks for the discussion people. The PO was surprised when the surveyor came up with this statement. "It's a boat! It's surrounded by water." The surveyor indicated GFI and GFCI both were required as the GFI trips more easily. I believe the PO had GFCI installed but I am uncertain about the particulars of these.

Jim, Sent from my iPad using Trawler
Sounds like the surveyor deserves a plug .....
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:54 AM   #30
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depends whether he said all outlets had to be GFI or GFI protected.
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Old 03-19-2014, 11:58 AM   #31
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depends whether he said all outlets had to be GFI or GFI protected.
Functionally, it's the same thing. Any outlet wired up (correctly!) downstream of a GFI is protected.

On refitting an old boat, it may be simpler and more cost effective to put GFI's in each outlet as it may be difficult to know what is wired to what. Probably not that many outlets to deal with. GFI's are not that expensive.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:18 PM   #32
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I agree with Ski in NC. "Multiple feed through" installations of GFCI's are permitted under ABYC and NFPA standards. ie. if the first outlet in the circuit is GFCI, all others on that circuit are protected.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:19 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Functionally, it's the same thing. Any outlet wired up (correctly!) downstream of a GFI is protected.

On refitting an old boat, it may be simpler and more cost effective to put GFI's in each outlet as it may be difficult to know what is wired to what. Probably not that many outlets to deal with. GFI's are not that expensive.
I know...what I was getting at is if he sad all outlets are required to be and the insurance co blindly follows surveyors recommendations...it's the never ending cycle of less than perfect surveyors having one leg up on you.

It makes the good ones have t work harder to separate themselves from the pack.
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:56 PM   #34
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You can buy plug in GFI at Lows and Home. We had an insurance audit which requird GFI on the out lets, and the plug in pass/met the requirement. Also the are a 4 plug rather than two.
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Old 03-19-2014, 05:04 PM   #35
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As a side note..
I replaced all outlets with GFI as the installed wiring was setup in a way that required it. All was good until I replaced a 12V radio in the same cabinet as one of the GFI outlets. When installing the speakers, I looped the speaker wire over one of the 120VAC cables temporarily while I determined where I wanted to place them, etc.

While listening to the stereo that night I heard the GFI pop. I had plugged nothing new into it. I reset it and it again popped in about five minutes. OK, there may be a problem so I removed everything from the circuit and reset the GFI- popped again in about 5 minutes.

So the culprit proved to be the speaker wires that I had set on top of the 120VAC wires. (And yes, all connectors were proper and cables are brand new on everything.) In studying what was happening I found that the signals going through the speaker wires must have induced a change in the GFI that was sensed as current and caused it to pop. I literally moved the speaker wires onto a hanger in the closet and the problem went away.

All wires have subsequently been installed and secured after I found where I wanted the speakers. Just thought I would pass this along if anyone ever has a GFI pop and can't find out why.

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Old 03-19-2014, 07:36 PM   #36
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I had an advantage because Hatteras supplies detailed schematics of each circuit. But even still, one has to deal with decades of PO modifications, and one's own. If in doubt (not much of an "if", there should always be doubt), turn every thing on and have something plugged in to each outlet, and start turning off breakers, which quickly tells you what is on each circuit. Put your "master" GFI outlet as the first thing after the breaker. I just installed them right next to the panel, made it much easier to control everything, just to make sure some PO hadn't put in an intervening outlet or switched things around some.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:53 AM   #37
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One of the "issues" with some GFI receptical's is that many are meant for solid copper wire vs fine stranded ( and hopefully ) tinned wire. There are GFI's that have side clamps that will hold our marine wire firmly.

The first one is much better than the second (non GFI shown just to show terminals).

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Old 03-20-2014, 06:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
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One of the "issues" with some GFI receptical's is that many are meant for solid copper wire vs fine stranded ( and hopefully ) tinned wire. There are GFI's that have side clamps that will hold our marine wire firmly.

The first one is much better than the second (non GFI shown just to show terminals).

HOLLYWOOD
The wires should be terminated with properly crimped ring terminals.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:19 AM   #39
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The wires should be terminated with properly crimped ring terminals.
Doesn't ABYC allow for clamping terminal ends without terminals?

Some marine equipment has "clamping" termination.

Otherwise wouldn't those "euro strip" terminal blocks be inappropriate?
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:39 AM   #40
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Doesn't ABYC allow for clamping terminal ends without terminals?

Some marine equipment has "clamping" termination.

Otherwise wouldn't those "euro strip" terminal blocks be inappropriate?
It does ..... but the securing screw must not impinge on the conductor.
ie. you have to use those terminals where the screw pushes on a little floating plate to secure the conductor. I have never seen an AC outlet with that kind of terminal.
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