Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-15-2011, 06:10 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
BelfastCruiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 60
Getting Rid of the House Wire

Hey All, I'm chasing the ancient runs (1973)of house wiring on the A.C side. The D.C. side is all new boat wire w/ inverter. *Here's the question: I have a few old junction boxes in which runs are simply twisted and wire nutted. Not Good! How do you run a feed line to 2 branch lines without bringing them together and twisting/nutting? I want to replace with ABYC compliant stranded boat wire, and apporpriate connectors.* I was thinking I'd put them on a parallel inside*a waterproof j-box. Is this what you guys have done?

I am solely responsible for what happens on my boat. No suggestions/advice*will change that, so please weigh in.

Thanks - Kevin O
__________________
Advertisement

BelfastCruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 06:44 AM   #2
Guru
 
JohnP's Avatar
 
City: Toms River
Country: USA
Vessel Name: D U E T T E
Vessel Model: 1996 36' Island Gypsy
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,109
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Kevin,* If you are replacing the house wire (which I assume you mean single strand romex) with stranded wire you should be able to redesign the circuits to not have any junction boxes.

Example, If you have an outlet circuit --you would wire from the panel to the first outlet, than from that outlet a wire would continue to the next.

Same with a lighting circuit.

AC appliances should have their own dedicated wires back to the panel.

FYI- They do have 3way butt connectors (crimp on) if you elect to use the junction box system.* I don't like using them on AC.* Someone here may have a better suggestion.

JohnP
__________________

JohnP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 06:57 AM   #3
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
JohnP wrote:
FYI- They do have 3way butt connectors (crimp on) if you elect to use the junction box system.* I don't like using them on AC.* Someone here may have a better suggestion.

Those are terrible on AC as well as DC.* The center portion is not insulated.

Two suggestions:

1.* You can buy "reducing crimp"* connectors.* These are intended for transitioning from wire size to another (example, connecting #12 to #14).* For branching, you could use a reducing connector and put 2 #14 wires in the large side and 1 in the small side.* Or use a #10/#12 connector and put 2 # 14 wires in each side,

2.* Mount a terminal strip in the back of the junction box and put spade or ring terminals on the wires and connect them with the terminal strip. Keep in mind that the terminal strip will be "hot" so you need a cover on it.
*

*
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 08:15 AM   #4
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Kevin, most marine electricians I know use snow cone crimps for the purpose you describe.* There isn't a specific ABYC 'approved method' for making up such connections, but the crimps are what I see the most of.* If you want to be extra careful, you can solder the wires first, then apply silicon or 3M waterproofing goop used for underground splicing to the base of the snow cone after crimping.

If you want to go hog wild, use an a/c terminal block mounted inside a box, but I don't know why you'd bother.
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 08:34 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
bshanafelt's Avatar
 
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Isobel K
Vessel Model: 37' Custom Pilothouse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

I agree the best scenario is no splices, so lots of home runs.

but if you must do a splice, try these:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/3M-...onnector-4DYW6
Attached Images
 
bshanafelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 08:53 AM   #6
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
Delfin wrote:
Kevin, most marine electricians I know use snow cone crimps for the purpose you describe.* There isn't a specific ABYC 'approved method' for making up such connections, but the crimps are what I see the most of.* If you want to be extra careful, you can solder the wires first, then apply silicon or 3M waterproofing goop used for underground splicing to the base of the snow cone after crimping.

If you want to go hog wild, use an a/c terminal block mounted inside a box, but I don't know why you'd bother.

If you solder an electrical connection, there's not much point in trying to crimp it afterwards.
*

*
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 09:14 AM   #7
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,719
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
Delfin wrote:
...*If you want to be extra careful, you can solder the wires first, then apply silicon or 3M waterproofing goop used for underground splicing to the base of the snow cone after crimping...
I'm not so sure about the soldering even if you are crimping after.* You are taking stranded wire and making a section solid*by soldering.* You now have an area where vibrational flexing is concentrated.* Aren't you defeating the purpose of using stranded wire?* I would just crimp with good quality heat shrink.

*
Larry M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 09:40 AM   #8
Veteran Member
 
BelfastCruiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 60
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Thanks guys, what I was trying to do was run from the Shore/Gen side of the panel to (2) electric heaters, a small one in a forward stateroom (750 watts) and a larger 1500 watt in the salon. I was planning to run some 12/3 and tap into it for the smaller heater. Thanks for the info - I'd never heard of some of these strategies - you guys are a great resource!
Kevin O
BelfastCruiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 10:18 AM   #9
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
Getting Rid of the House Wire

If you wiring is old, its best to have a breaker right after the heater before the long run of the old wire. So there is a breaker at both ends.* *We had an insurance audit and was required to eliminate all stacking of wires, to use Busbar/connectors and required to have a breaker at the application end before the long run of the old wire.* So I used/wired in multi plug in power strips with a built in breaker and plugged in the heater/lights. *It passed audit inspection.* Also had to added GFI plugs around any sinks, and out side plug in.*
*
Also, most electrical fire are at the main AC power selector switch as there is no breaker between the shore power plug in and the main AC power selector switch.* We were also required to install a two throw, with reverse polarity light, breaker. *The we had to install a smoke detector in any room/area that was closed off that had electrical including the bilge and engine room.* We have 14 smoke alarms.*
*
I also had the boat inspected by a marine electrician after all the changes, which passed.***Now thye boat can pass ABYC standards.* If you ever buy a older bat make sure the survey is done according to ABYC standards sas it cost us 3,000+.* *


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 15th of April 2011 10:27:11 AM
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 11:33 AM   #10
Guru
 
JohnP's Avatar
 
City: Toms River
Country: USA
Vessel Name: D U E T T E
Vessel Model: 1996 36' Island Gypsy
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,109
Getting Rid of the House Wire

Kevin, One approach you may consider is to install a dedicated outlet for each heater.

With electric heating I like to go oversize with the wire. Tinned marine wire and crimped ring or spade connectors to the outlets.

Behind or near your main panel you could install a small load center that will hold two breakers. I would connect this panel to your main panel with at least #10 wire (which is good for 30 Amps)* Than I would install two 15 amp breakers in the load center and run a separate 12/3 wire to each outlet. The 12/3 is good for 20 amps but the breakers will limit it to 15 so you should have no worries there.

The load center is not typically marine but they are used frequently by installers of marine hvac units and hold up pretty well. They do not cost much and are in homedepot and places like that. I would mount it somewhere accessible but not really in view,( they are not pretty)*behind your panel or in an adjacent locker.

I am sure some folks here will not like this, but installed right it will be safe and reliable.

*Before you get into working behind the panel, It is a good idea to unplug your boat from shore power to be safe.

JohnP



*


-- Edited by JohnP on Friday 15th of April 2011 12:43:41 PM
JohnP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 03:35 PM   #11
Guru
 
Phil Fill's Avatar
 
City: Everett Wa
Country: US
Vessel Name: Eagle
Vessel Model: Roughwater 58 pilot house
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,919
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

I forgot.

You might want to install Pic a Watt heaters where you can select/change the watts/amps.*They can be bought at most dirt hardware stores.* *I have our pic a watt set at 1000 watts or 8.33 amps so there is enough amps left over for other things and probable do not have to run a new separate wire.* Just make sure you have a breaker in between the heater and the old wire to be on the save side.*
Phil Fill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 03:44 PM   #12
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
BelfastCruiser wrote:
Thanks guys, what I was trying to do was run from the Shore/Gen side of the panel to (2) electric heaters, a small one in a forward stateroom (750 watts) and a larger 1500 watt in the salon. I was planning to run some 12/3 and tap into it for the smaller heater. Thanks for the info - I'd never heard of some of these strategies - you guys are a great resource!
Kevin O

For that, I would recommend home runs for each heater, each with its own circuit breaker.* That's what I would do if it were my boat.
*

*
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 06:52 PM   #13
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
Larry M wrote:Delfin wrote:
...*If you want to be extra careful, you can solder the wires first, then apply silicon or 3M waterproofing goop used for underground splicing to the base of the snow cone after crimping...
I'm not so sure about the soldering even if you are crimping after.* You are taking stranded wire and making a section solid*by soldering.* You now have an area where vibrational flexing is concentrated.* Aren't you defeating the purpose of using stranded wire?* I would just crimp with good quality heat shrink.

*

*Not a lot of agreement on the subject.* You'll find supporters of solder, and those who think it a waste.* Properly crimped connectors probably are best, but even with the best tools, I have routinely had problems ensuring that the crimp works as designed.* Am I the only one who has crimped the patooties with a Klein tool and tugged on the wire only to find it comes loose?* Maybe so, but as I said, if you want to be sure of the connection, soldering does that.* The crimp afterwards is simply the easiest way to cover the joint.

*
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 07:28 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Jay N's Avatar
 
City: Edmonds, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: WESTERLY
Vessel Model: 1974 Pacific Trawler 37
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 387
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
Delfin wrote:
*Not a lot of agreement on the subject.* You'll find supporters of solder, and those who think it a waste.* Properly crimped connectors probably are best, but even with the best tools, I have routinely had problems ensuring that the crimp works as designed.* Am I the only one who has crimped the patooties with a Klein tool and tugged on the wire only to find it comes loose?* Maybe so, but as I said, if you want to be sure of the connection, soldering does that.* The crimp afterwards is simply the easiest way to cover the joint.

*
*After a 6-month total rewiring project, probably made several thousand crimps, all with Ancor connectors and ratchet crimper.* Every crimp pull tested, not one failure, then heat shrink sealed.*

Maybe you*pulled too hard?*

*
Jay N is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2011, 09:21 PM   #15
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,860
Getting Rid of the House Wire

-- Edited by C lectric on Saturday 16th of April 2011 07:26:50 PM
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 05:06 AM   #16
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,512
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

If you solder an electrical connection, there's not much point in trying to crimp it afterwards.



Indeed that IS backwards.

My way would be ANCHOR wire (12ga) and Anchor terminal ends , them the Anchor $70 crimper.
The A wire is about 10% larger than std sizes in grade.

You could stop at this point ,

Our way is to obtain a 3-5 lb roofing copper iron. Lightly flux wire before assembly.


Heat the copper with a propane torch , tin the end clean , but no solder is required .

Touch the hot iron to the eye of the crimped terminal about a second.

This will flow the solder on the wire and in the terminal and NOT get the wire beyond the terminal end hard.

Cover with glue 3X shrink wrap , and your set for a century.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 07:05 PM   #17
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

Quote:
C lectric wrote:
If you are doing a lot of wiring or rewiring a set of crimpers such as these is worthwhile.
*You mean you're supposed to use a TOOL?* And I was using my teeth - no wonder I was able to pull some apart.

The point of crimping after soldering is, as I said, the easiest way to cover the solder joint, but I guess I'm just talking to myself.....

*
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 07:12 PM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 24
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

gotta use molars if you're teeth crimping!
wescoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 07:26 PM   #19
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Somewhere
Country: , Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer sedan 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,860
Getting Rid of the House Wire

I wasn't trying to give you offense. Sorry you took it that way.* See ya sometime.



-- Edited by C lectric on Saturday 16th of April 2011 07:30:09 PM


-- Edited by C lectric on Saturday 16th of April 2011 08:28:02 PM
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 08:36 PM   #20
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,482
RE: Getting Rid of the House Wire

I thought I would post a pic of Carl ( Delfin ) just so you can understand why he doesnt need to use crimpers... and pulls crimp connectors apart on a regular basis

HOLLYWOOD
Attached Images
 
__________________

hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Battery Wire Tom.B Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 83 02-07-2012 01:29 AM
Getting rid of the wood skipperdude General Discussion 42 06-06-2011 01:58 PM
Get rid of old propane stove? Woodsong General Discussion 60 10-23-2010 01:37 AM
direct wire to house batteries from alternator? Daddyo Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 12 01-31-2009 04:49 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012