Generators and carbon monoxide

[FF]

"If the air is cleaner, then it is hard to assign the disease increase on dirty air."

That of course depends on how you measure "cleaner".

Look at the zero emission clean electric cars , that in truth are COAL powered.

 

[sdowney717]

It seems you don't understand what this thread is about. It's not about exhaust smells, it's about carbon monoxide which has no smell but can kill you.

Dont be so bombastic or pompous, my underwater exhaust can not kill me anymore. Unless it springs a leak inside the boat.

Diesel exhaust is not as likely to kill as is Gasoline exhaust. But it does make people sick.
If you can smell the exhaust, then you are also breathing in CO which you can not smell.

 

[rwidman]

Dont be so bombastic or pompous, my underwater exhaust can not kill me anymore. Unless it springs a leak inside the boat.

Diesel exhaust is not as likely to kill as is Gasoline exhaust. But it does make people sick.
If you can smell the exhaust, then you are also breathing in CO which you can not smell.

Easy, big boy. I wasn't trying to pee in your Cheerios, just responding to your post that read as if you were confused.

The thread is about carbon monoxide, not exhaust smell. You can have a fatal dose of carbon monoxide while smelling nothing.

 

[rwidman]

.................... I cannot find any verified deaths from CO poisioning coming from a diesel generator or heater. Yes I did find ONE suspected death, but that is not a for sure, so I'm not counting that one.

So Where are all the deaths from diesel CO ???

Also...

If home CO detectors are non functional (as indicated) why are we not hearing of the lawsuits that should be happening? It seems to me that using a CO detector that doesn't detect harmful levels of CO would invite a flury of lawsuits.

The people who died from CO poisoning aren't around to tell about it. People die from CO poisoning all the time and it often makes the news.

Nobody claimed home CO detectors are non functional. Some of us pointed out that marine CO detectors are designed to a different specification. A residential CO detector is far better than no CO detector but it's not as good as one designed for a boat.

And, CO can enter your diesel powered boat from other sources including nearby gasoline powered boats or gensets. You don't have to make it on your own boat for it to be a hazard.

 

[ksanders]

so...

I actually took the time to read up on Marine Co detectors, vs Home Co detectors, and allot of what has been presented in this thread is not based on fact. I want to use a stronger word for it, but I'll just stick with its not factual.

What I learned was taken directly from the Kidde (representing home) and the fireboy-xinex (representing marine) web sites.

The basic difference between the detection of CO in a marine unit and a home unt is that the marine unit uses a algorythm to prevent false alarms. It is NOT to detect lower levels of CO (as has been misrepresented in this thread), it is to filter the higher levels of CO that can occure on a boat during operations such as docking, and prevent the unit from alarming during these short duration high CO exposures.

There are some other things that a marine unit does have that a home unit does not have though. One is a resistance to light spray, and another is a generator shutdown contact (not available on all units).

This information is easily available, and I implor anybody with curosity to actually go to the web sites and read the technical specifications, and other documents available. When doing so, make sure you are comparing apples to apples because PPM is not the same as COHb so when you see a lower number, just remember that they are not the same.

 

[BandB]

Kevin

I pointed that out in post #36 and the one additional feature is that it's a time based algorithm designed to report low levels over a long period. Just a different algorithm in terms of not reacting to the burst and reacting to the long. In a home, the issue is generally sudden and strong and won't naturally stop. In a boat, it's more likely to be continuous over a long period and the bursts generally dissipate quickly.

So, between us we're pointed out information from three sources, information that is all very consistent.

Now, it's up to individual choice on what to use, psneeld chooses home units. I choose marine.

 

[psneeld]

Thank you Kevin....what I inadequately tried to say also.... that there was some difference in opinion at the article and study level of the stenths aND weaknesses of both..

I just feel the practical differences are tiny when dealing with a larger open power vessel.

Maybe not so for smaller vessels and typical tube like sailboats.

One article was adamant about having one in the flybridge oxygen tent for boats that could suffer from the station wagon effect.

 

[ksanders]

Kevin

I pointed that out in post #36 and the one additional feature is that it's a time based algorithm designed to report low levels over a long period. Just a different algorithm in terms of not reacting to the burst and reacting to the long. In a home, the issue is generally sudden and strong and won't naturally stop. In a boat, it's more likely to be continuous over a long period and the bursts generally dissipate quickly.

So, between us we're pointed out information from three sources, information that is all very consistent.

Now, it's up to individual choice on what to use, psneeld chooses home units. I choose marine.

The problem is that is not correct.

The time based average estimates COHb using a TWA algorythm with a low detection level of 10%.

This is not lower than the detection levels of a home unit.

What the algorythm does is to apply a time base incorporating the half Life of CO to avoid setting off an alarm, not set off an alarm earlier.

If you put a marine unit and a home unit side by side on a boat the marine unit would not alarm earlier. In fact it would alarm later than the home unit.

You can choose whatever units you want. Just don't try to infer that you're doing so because the marine units are safer, which is not correct. That line of logic leads people to incorrectly believe that the home units are not as safe.

 

[sdowney717]

Thank you Kevin....what I inadequately tried to say also.... that there was some difference in opinion at the article and study level of the stenths aND weaknesses of both..

I just feel the practical differences are tiny when dealing with a larger open power vessel.

Maybe not so for smaller vessels and typical tube like sailboats.

One article was adamant about having one in the flybridge oxygen tent for boats that could suffer from the station wagon effect.

I have experienced that station wagon effect on our boat. I definitely like the underwater exhaust idea. I have such things for my boat, took them off for a short time, and will likely put them back on next haulout. They attach to the transom and direct the fumes into the water. Other thought I had was I have seen large rubber hoses extending the exhaust stream down into the water.









Some barnacles grew on the inside as it had no bottom paint there. But they are painted now. I took them off to see if it affected the power output, but I could not tell any difference.
photo storage

 

[psneeld]

I have no idea if exhausting underwater has any effect on reducing CO any better than an exhaust near the surface.

My wild guess is it doesn't as it would bubble to the surface immediately anyhow, unless travelling fast enough the bubble surface well astern.

 

[FF]

How does the constant water in an underwater exhaust NOT speed up the rusting of the cylinder walls?

This rusting is probably the most common cause for white smoke , low compression , not engine hours.

Same question for water lift engine & noisemaker mufflers.

 

[sdowney717]

How is it different than raw salt water flowing through the exhaust pipes with no underwater exit? the out streaming raw water is just as hot with or without underwater exits. My guess is raw water steams up and salty vapors are present all over the exhaust system, but much less so near the engine exhaust manifold, especially after the hot engine turns off.

I can tell you, with those underwater things on the hull, I never smelled any exhaust, and with them off, sometimes I do smell exhaust. To my mind, they do something good, better than without such devices. Mine have a small hole above the water to prevent reverse siphoning when engine turns off. These things do not retain water in the exhaust tubing. It all drains out.

Here is the patent for these things I have, they are from the mid 1960's, and still in fine condition, made of some hard red rubber.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3162171A/en

 

[sdowney717]

I was just thinking, a comparison of underwater exhaust is an outboard or stern drive. Both exit the fumes underwater. Question is, do they prevent objectionable exhaust smell and gases coming in the boat or not? I don't know myself, don't have that type boat anymore.
But I don't recall noticing any such fumes when I did have that type boat. Surely someone will know. I suppose if it running badly, it might be noticed. and there are very few diesel outboards, gas power does not produce as much noticeable exhaust smoke.

 

[Baker]

Even in the southeast during the summer, the temps normally drop into the mid 70's at night. Your AC shouldn't be running that much over night and if it is just two of you, you only need to cool the master stateroom over night. Perhaps you should be looking at a load analysis and consider adding batteries instead of running the genny over night. The idea is to run the genny to top off the batteries and then turn it off when you go to bed and the batteries should keep the AC running overnight if the house bank is sized properly. Most folks don't like the noise from the genny overnight anyway.

But the carbon monoxide alarm is still a good thing to have.

Dude....you do not live on the gulf coast. It is 85 degrees at night and 100% humidity. Air conditioning is not really optional if you want to be comfortable.

 

[dhays]

2 years ago I had to have a "free" courtesy insurance survey by Boat US's chosen surveyor for my area.

One of the items I was told that I MUST have is a CO detector in each sleeping area. Or my insurance would not be renewed.
I installed a home type battery operated detector.
I'm now in compliance.

Interesting. My new boat had expired CO detectors which the surveyor flagged. Not only were the two I had expired and therefore non-functional, the surveyor also recommended that I have one in each sleeping compartment. I have one in the master and one in the saloon. None in the guest cabin. BoatUS is the insurance carrier. They saw the survey, and while they restricted the policy on a couple of items, they were mute on the CO detectors.

 

[sunchaser]

arlweb.msha.gov/illness_Prevention/healthtopics/carbonmonoxide.htm


The above link shows MSHA standards for underground miners working in a diesel engine environment. I did this for many years.

 

[sdowney717]

The Leuchter Report: Fumes from a diesel engine are not toxic enough to kill people.
Death by CO can easily occur if a diesels air intake is deliberately restricted.
The Nazis would cram 9 to 10 people per square meter and gas them with captured T34 tank diesel engine exhaust. Restricted air mal running diesel combustion ups CO to a 6% very lethal concentration.


And animal studies also showed they would die exposed to normal diesel exhaust even though CO was low, other air contaminants would kill them, so it is not just CO that will kill you, diesel exhaust can kill. I am sure the caged animal could smell the diesel exhaust and desire to flee away and so would a person. This would be unpleasant enough to make them desire to leave the area if they could.
I personally don't like the diesel exhaust smell and prefer not to be around it.

 

[Donsan]

Dude....you do not live on the gulf coast. It is 85 degrees at night and 100% humidity. Air conditioning is not really optional if you want to be comfortable.

85 degrees at night??? Certainly, you exaggerate. I do live in the tropics and quite a bit south of Houston. Okay, I just looked up St. Petersburg FL and the overage low is 75 degrees. Where are you finding these 85 degrees at night? At 8 or 9PM?

I am not saying you don't need AC at night. My suggestion is to configure your boat so you don't have to run the genny over night.

 

[sdowney717]

In the summer we also in Va, have miserable hot sticky muggy nights. Which would be very uncomfortable to sleep. Soaking wet in sweat is not pleasant. When the temp drops from 100 degrees during the day in high humidity, that humid air precipitates water, condenses water right out of the air. I run our AC on summer overnighters, which means run the gen all night long if need be.

 

[BandB]

85 degrees at night??? Certainly, you exaggerate. I do live in the tropics and quite a bit south of Houston. Okay, I just looked up St. Petersburg FL and the overage low is 75 degrees. Where are you finding these 85 degrees at night? At 8 or 9PM?

I am not saying you don't need AC at night. My suggestion is to configure your boat so you don't have to run the genny over night.

Last year from July 3 to August 15, every night in Galveston had a low of 80 or above. At 8 PM they are closer to the high for the day than the low.

St. Petersburg's low averages 3 to 5 degrees lower.

 

[Baker]

85 degrees at night??? Certainly, you exaggerate. I do live in the tropics and quite a bit south of Houston. Okay, I just looked up St. Petersburg FL and the overage low is 75 degrees. Where are you finding these 85 degrees at night? At 8 or 9PM?

I am not saying you don't need AC at night. My suggestion is to configure your boat so you don't have to run the genny over night.

An AVERAGE low of 75???? That is hot as hell when you take the upper range of that average during the summer!!! July...August....September are miserable. I surf these Gulf Coast waters regularly. And by mid July, surf water temperatures are in the mid to upper 80s!!!! The inland bays and waterways are warmer!!!! As Madge from Palmolive would say...."You're soaking in it!"....the water that is. And when you are sitting there soaking in that 87 degree water, it is pretty tough to get much cooler than that.

Again, if you do not have AC overnight...you will not be comfortable. I still do not think running AC on inverters is really viable when you need 32k(or more) worth of cooling capacity. And what is wrong with running the generator??? I would much rather run a generator than have $4000 worth of batteries and charging systems and monitoring systems and inverter systems and the space and weight they take up....I guess it would be MUCH more than $4000 now that I think about it. Oh wait...you must be a recovering sailboater....

I don't think it is a boat configuration issue. A mind configuration issue...maybe. I do know there are people that would rather sweat all night than run a generator. I am not one of those. I run mine with pride!!!! And comfort.

I remember a while back we did a little trip and anchored out. It was with my sailboat friends(I am a fully recovered sailboater. Unlike alcohol, you can fully recover from sailboaterism). There were 5 sailboats(without generators), and us in a trawler with one. We woke up the next day at the crack of 0900. I couldn't see out of the windows due to condensation so I walked out and all the sailboats were gone. They had been smoked out by the heat and humidity. We arose fresh and dry and enjoyed a nice breakfast and coffee.

Comfort is THE number one reason I went from sailboat to trawler. And by golly, I am gonna be comfortable!!!!

 

[psneeld]

Right so!

I remember water temps in the 90s in south Florida when I lived on my sailboat back in the 80s.

If I tried that now instead of when I was 25 and fresh out of flight school and spent every 3rd night on base in air conditioning....wow..doubt I would live on a boat.

The Gulf Coast in late summer, early fall makes lower Florida look like Kodiak, AK in the summer.

My trawler reflects water temp a lot...warm water, warm boat, cool water, cool boat.

There is a several hour time lag when using A/C or heat...but certainly not all night.

Travelling during the winter months to Florida....the temps do average out a bit getter...but glad I am out of there before late June, July.