Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-15-2016, 12:43 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
Maerin's Avatar
 
City: Anywhere
Country: USA
Vessel Name: M/V Maerin
Vessel Model: Solo 4303
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I don't disagree that one might be better than another...

But I am waiting for someone to post where a specific marine CO detector is substantially better than a home one...

I am waiting......beyond personal opinion....
The process of CO poisoning is immutable. The detectors that do not measure very low levels of CO are ineffective in preventing poisoning in an environment like a boat where there are confined air spaces in close proximity to a source. In the case of a residence where you're dealing with significantly higher air volumes, the monitoring differs to enough of a degree that the monitoring device has a configuration that can be less sensitive than on a boat. It's not a matter of "better", rather matching the device to the task.

It's not my personal opinion, BTW, it's the CO training and certification I obtained in the course of 25 yrs. of residential and commercial HVAC service. I've responded to CO poisoning calls where residential monitors were in place. The basic "First Alert" monitors are notorious for providing a false sense of security and creating situations where because a monitor was in place, CO issues were ignored, often to the detriment of the occupants. Never lost one, but saw several hospitalized. CO's nothing to trifle with.
__________________
Advertisement

Maerin is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 12:48 PM   #42
Guru
 
dhays's Avatar
 
City: Gig Harbor
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 5,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"any boat with a propane galley stove definitely needs CO detectors because unvented gas stoves give off quite a bit of CO."

Interesting tho that hotels , hospitals and big retail stores use propane floor polishing equipment , in a country overloaded with Liars for Hire !
I experienced CO poisoning once while working in Alaska at a fish cannery. I was driving propane powered forklifts in a freezer that was not well ventilated. Fortunately I noticed before I passed out. Losing consciousness while in a freezer that is -15F while alone would not have ended well.

OSHA was far removed from Egegick AK.
__________________

__________________
Regards,

Dave
SPOT page
dhays is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 01:55 PM   #43
Guru
 
City: Seaford Va on Poquoson River, VA
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Old Glory
Vessel Model: 1970 Egg Harbor 37 extended salon model
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 1,302
I used to smell my generator exhaust, never was a lot.
I glued a piece of rubber hose to the outlet. Maybe hose is 2.5 feet long.
The end of the hose sits under the water a few inches.
All the fumes go into the water.
I never smell any exhaust anymore.
It makes a pleasant burbling sound.
I have a water lift Onan muffler.
I have never had any trouble with this, it never has sucked back water, or if it did I would never know since it has a large waterlift muffler chamber it would suck a little water into that.
If I wish, I can lift the end out of the water to see the cooling water flow out.
Seriously, it has been perfect.

My slipmate has big diesels. He just put his boat into the slip. He let the engines run quite a while. There was not much smoke, but the fumes coming my way were very very strongly smelling of diesel exhaust. I can understand how that could make some people sick.
sdowney717 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 02:11 PM   #44
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,789
I'm very sensitive to diesel exhaust smell. The genset on our Hatteras exited just ahead of midships and never bothered me. I did make a habit of not opening the portlights on that side while sleeping.. but then that meant that if the genset was running overnight, we had the air conditioning on.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 03:14 PM   #45
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,882
All I can say is there is a lot of conflicting reports out there....

Often, contradicting each other and even the views, as professional as they maybe, presented here.

Maybe the best option is what I have read...install one or two of each...relying on the strengths of both kinds to give you the best protection.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 03:41 PM   #46
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdowney717 View Post
I used to smell my generator exhaust, never was a lot.
I glued a piece of rubber hose to the outlet. Maybe hose is 2.5 feet long.
The end of the hose sits under the water a few inches.
All the fumes go into the water.
I never smell any exhaust anymore.
It makes a pleasant burbling sound.
I have a water lift Onan muffler.
I have never had any trouble with this, it never has sucked back water, or if it did I would never know since it has a large waterlift muffler chamber it would suck a little water into that.
If I wish, I can lift the end out of the water to see the cooling water flow out.
Seriously, it has been perfect.

My slipmate has big diesels. He just put his boat into the slip. He let the engines run quite a while. There was not much smoke, but the fumes coming my way were very very strongly smelling of diesel exhaust. I can understand how that could make some people sick.
It seems you don't understand what this thread is about. It's not about exhaust smells, it's about carbon monoxide which has no smell but can kill you.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 04:21 PM   #47
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maerin View Post
The high quality detectors, particularly those designed for marine and aircraft, use a detection algorithm that takes into consideration the cumulative effect of CO. In the body, inhaled CO binds to hemoglobin in the blood. Hemoglobin has a high affinity for Oxygen, but it has a higher affinity for CO. So the longer CO is inhaled or present (even at very low levels) in the air one breathes, the more it interferes with the hemoglobin's ability absorb oxygen, to the extent that eventually the oxygen is completely displaced by CO. You effectively suffocate. This is what makes CO so insidious.

Because CO poisoning is cumulative, a detector must mimic the accumulation in the bloodstream. Exposure to even very low CO levels for an extended time will eventually accumulate enough CO in the bloodstream to cause poisoning. Most residential detectors are linear, and are, in fact pretty much useless because they don't monitor very low levels that can accumulate over a long period of time. By the time they alarm, you're already compromised. If you're going to install one, get a good one. First Alert and most of the residential units don't pass muster. The cumulative low level monitoring is the key to choosing an effective monitor.

Aeromedix is designed for use in aircraft, one of the best. Nighthawk by Kidde does cumulative low level monitoring, and several marine units also do. Choose wisely. If it's important enough to install a monitor, it's worth getting one that's top of the line.
Thank you for an explanation based on facts.
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 04:58 PM   #48
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,953
This is all wonderful discussion, detection algorythims, and all the great technical knowledge possessed here.

So....

If low levels, as indicated in several posts of CO are dangerous...

And

If diesel generators (and heaters) put out low levels of CO...

Why isn't anybody dying from this???

If it's as dangerous as indicated I would think that there would be a bunch of deaths, right...

I am no CO expert. I do not know how it attached to cells in the blood and all that. Nor do I understand the algorythims for counting CO.

But...

I cannot find any verified deaths from CO poisioning coming from a diesel generator or heater. Yes I did find ONE suspected death, but that is not a for sure, so I'm not counting that one.

So Where are all the deaths from diesel CO ???

Also...

If home CO detectors are non functional (as indicated) why are we not hearing of the lawsuits that should be happening? It seems to me that using a CO detector that doesn't detect harmful levels of CO would invite a flury of lawsuits.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 05:05 PM   #49
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
All I can say is there is a lot of conflicting reports out there....

Often, contradicting each other and even the views, as professional as they maybe, presented here.

Maybe the best option is what I have read...install one or two of each...relying on the strengths of both kinds to give you the best protection.
Don't see much conflict here at all.... my takeaway is you have non "marine" CO detectors on your boat.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 05:19 PM   #50
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
Don't see much conflict here at all.... my takeaway is you have non "marine" CO detectors on your boat.
Mainly because of my bad experience with the marine ones.

But I would switch if I thought one or the other is genuinely better.

Some of the links provided such as from BoatUS said the household ones trigger too easily..... even just a gas boat starting down the dock...and that's bad? Even though in reality...I have only had it happen once in 10 plus years of living abpard.

Yet I believe it had been stated that they don't detect low levels of CO...which is confusing and in my definition...contradictory.

Yes I grasp the concept of lower air volume, changeover and collection of CO in a boat....but from years of living aboard with household CO detectors and no false alarms and triggers with hydrogen gas from batteries and a gas boat running for a long time close by...they seem just fine.

I read at least 5 links, boat magazine foundation reports and the testing of standards bt UL and another agency I can't remember the acronym right now. I have a very solid safety background and training and don't take this lightly....

But I have also been around the marine industry and boats long enough that marine manufacturer claims are often way off base, made to suit their own needs and press that nothing else is better than what they think.

Well....I understand the concepts they are trying to meet....but like anchor tests...the readings I have done don't show that they meet any better safety margin, which I think Kevin is pointing to.

If I truly though a regular household CO detector wasn't going to give me ample warning...then I would switch. But to run 12v wires to where the alarms would best be placed, and to pay the price delta...just doexn't tip the scales based on what I have researched well beyond a few posts here.

Bottom line is to have some detection ability....and both kinds seem to meet the need, if one is marginally better, then great....it just isn't in black and white to me based on my readings.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 05:31 PM   #51
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
T

If low levels, as indicated in several posts of CO are dangerous...

And

If diesel generators (and heaters) put out low levels of CO...

Why isn't anybody dying from this???

.
Actually they are dying, just very slowly. Lung diseases continue to increase. More people measured to have elevated levels of CO. Most people think of COPD as a problem getting enough air in. Actually it's a problem of getting the CO2 out. Various conditions of fibrosis are higher. Classifying it is difficult, but damage caused by an identifiable outside matter fits under Hypersensitive Pneumonitis.

The problem is that in most cases you can't tell how much was from one cause and how much from another. Still cigarettes are by far the leading cause of lung disease, but could exposure to diesel exhaust on top of that make the risk higher? Perhaps instead it's on top of exposure to some other agent like Formaldehyde.

The longer we live, the more these factors enter into the equation since much of it is cumulative effect.

From the National Institute of Health, I quote:

Diesel exhaust particulates are listed as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" in the Thirteenth Report on Carcinogens published by the National Toxicology Program because long-term exposure to diesel exhaust may cause lung cancer and other lung damage.

Long-term exposure to diesel exhaust can cause chronic respiratory symptoms such as persistent cough and mucous, bronchitis, and reduced lung capacity. Long-term exposure to diesel fuel vapors can cause kidney damage and lower the blood’s ability to clot. Swallowing diesel oil can cause collapse, rapid low blood pressure, and loss of vision.

In combination with other cancer-causing substances, such as cigarette smoke, welding fumes, and asbestos, long-term exposure to diesel exhaust can increase your risk of developing lung cancer.

If you have asthma, emphysema, heart disease, or allergies, exposure to diesel exhaust can worsen those symptoms.


For more information,

https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_ver...cals.php?id=11
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 05:55 PM   #52
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Mainly because of my bad experience with the marine ones.

But I would switch if I thought one or the other is genuinely better.

.................. .
If you don't then don't. We are supposed to put marine rated CO detectors on our boats (if required for the particular conditions) and I would assume that the requirements specify marine smoke detectors. New boats will have marine detectors installed, not residential detectors.

In reality, there are no detector police so you can make the choice to use something cheaper. Many boaters do dumber things all the time and get away with it.

A CO detector is like a PFD. It's something you pay good money for, hoping that you will never need to use it.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 06:47 PM   #53
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,882
When funds are limited....my risk management says put $$$ into PFDs, and other survival gear that has a higher probability of use than the CO detector on a diesel boat with good air exchange.

Not a tiny incremental , maybe superior boat CO alarm.

Not even a close argument for all the people I know that have used life jackets and never had an incident with, without, or between types of CO detectors.

Rarely is everything including the captain of a vessel perfect, this is one category that I don't see as clear cut as many other safety issues.

I don't consider it dumb....just informed, experienced risk management.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 07:03 PM   #54
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,363
On our diesel boat, it is fire and possible Hurricane heater malfunction that would be the CO I'd worry about. Engines or genset - decades of real world use, studies and reports are pretty thorough in defining NIOSH and MSHA diesel exhaust limitations and concerns.

You are right Kevin, the sky is not falling regarding diesel exhaust CO concerns. But there is VW's NOx jiggery of course.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 07:09 PM   #55
Guru
 
Bacchus's Avatar
 
City: Seneca Lake NY
Country: US
Vessel Name: Bacchus
Vessel Model: MS 34 HT Trawler
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesK View Post

It seems you don't understand what this thread is about. It's not about exhaust smells, it's about carbon monoxide which has no smell but can kill you.
Seems to be many side tracks of this thread.... Some good reference links explaining the differences...I didn't see anything that said dirt co detectors didn't work...were inferior...or worthy of lawsuits...only that they work differently and if you don't mind false alarms can save money.
Wonder which anchor works best when anchoring out w a dirt detector and is it different for a true marine detector????
__________________
Don
MS 34 HT Trawler
"Bacchus"
Bacchus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 07:43 PM   #56
Senior Member
 
City: Leesburg, VA
Country: United States
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
...That said, if you have a diesel generator your risk of CO poisioning goes to zero.....
This statement is FALSE.

You may have less chance of CO poisoning with a diesel engine or genset, but it is definitely not zero.
ssobol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 07:59 PM   #57
Guru
 
City: Hotel, CA
Country: Fried
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8,328
Brings back memories of the epic old Gas vs Diesel threads we used to have. No matter the point the only thing many could reply with was "oh yeah oh yeah, well gas explodes" "gasoline will kill your family" "you're irresponsible if you own a gas boat" "CO will kill you on a gas boat".

How are you diesel purists enjoying the wrath of the safety experts now that it's your turn to quell the overly excited?
__________________
Craig

It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled - Mark Twain
CPseudonym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 08:30 PM   #58
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,953
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssobol View Post
This statement is FALSE.

You may have less chance of CO poisoning with a diesel engine or genset, but it is definitely not zero.
OK, prove it.

Show me some deaths from CO poisioning from a diesel generator, or even a diesel engine at all.

Names, dates, links to news aritcles.

Invest some time and you'll find that they are pretty much impossible to find.



In making that statement, you are assuming that the deaths must exist. The problem is that they do not.

So while in theory you could die from CO poisioning from a diesel source, in practice you won't. Thats the problem with theory's. In practice they sometimes are disproven.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2016, 08:52 PM   #59
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Actually they are dying, just very slowly. Lung diseases continue to increase. More people measured to have elevated levels of CO. Most people think of COPD as a problem getting enough air in. Actually it's a problem of getting the CO2 out. Various conditions of fibrosis are higher. Classifying it is difficult, but damage caused by an identifiable outside matter fits under Hypersensitive Pneumonitis.

The problem is that in most cases you can't tell how much was from one cause and how much from another. Still cigarettes are by far the leading cause of lung disease, but could exposure to diesel exhaust on top of that make the risk higher? Perhaps instead it's on top of exposure to some other agent like Formaldehyde.

The longer we live, the more these factors enter into the equation since much of it is cumulative effect.

From the National Institute of Health, I quote:

Diesel exhaust particulates are listed as "reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" in the Thirteenth Report on Carcinogens published by the National Toxicology Program because long-term exposure to diesel exhaust may cause lung cancer and other lung damage.

Long-term exposure to diesel exhaust can cause chronic respiratory symptoms such as persistent cough and mucous, bronchitis, and reduced lung capacity. Long-term exposure to diesel fuel vapors can cause kidney damage and lower the blood’s ability to clot. Swallowing diesel oil can cause collapse, rapid low blood pressure, and loss of vision.

In combination with other cancer-causing substances, such as cigarette smoke, welding fumes, and asbestos, long-term exposure to diesel exhaust can increase your risk of developing lung cancer.

If you have asthma, emphysema, heart disease, or allergies, exposure to diesel exhaust can worsen those symptoms.
For more information,

https://toxtown.nlm.nih.gov/text_ver...cals.php?id=11
"Reasonably anticipated to be a human carcinogen" is a statement that holds little firmness under critical analysis. Is it, or is it not a carcinogen? Translation: Might be.

Also, due to cleaner emissions of many sources, air quality is much better now than in the past.

So lung diseases are more common? Perhaps it is because people are living longer and have a higher probability of a disease manifesting simply due to age. Something has to kill each of us.

If the air is cleaner, then it is hard to assign the disease increase on dirty air.

Not really relevant to CO monitors in boats, either.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2016, 09:37 AM   #60
Guru
 
jleonard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,739
2 years ago I had to have a "free" courtesy insurance survey by Boat US's chosen surveyor for my area.

One of the items I was told that I MUST have is a CO detector in each sleeping area. Or my insurance would not be renewed.
I installed a home type battery operated detector.
I'm now in compliance.
__________________

__________________
Jay Leonard
Attitude Adjustment
40 Albin
Mystic,Ct. /New Port Richey,Fl
jleonard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012