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Old 03-08-2013, 05:33 PM   #21
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City - CA
You tell me. What does that mean?

Just making a joke to rogue Californians (of which I am one!)
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #22
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We can run a 16,000 BTU A/C, a hot water heater, a hair dryer, a TV, 12 cu. ft. Fridge, and four 75 watt incandescent lamps easily on our 4.5 KW Northern Lights. Your system on a 50 ft. under the same kind of usage "doubled" would probably be able to pull twice that. But it's like Rwidman says. Add a couple of unconscious or undisciplined users and a washer/drier, a couple of heaters and an iron, "click". Proper separation on the panel based on how you and your family use the boat may be as much help as the proper genset.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:00 PM   #23
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PS Mods - I posted a picture of the USS John C. Stennis aircraft carrier that my son is proudly serving on and you are not allowing that and censoring.

I am not certain I want to be associated with you.

See you non Patriots later.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:34 PM   #24
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.................. But it's like Rwidman says. Add a couple of unconscious or undisciplined users and a washer/drier, a couple of heaters and an iron, "click". ...........
Many of us understand that constant underloading of a generator's engine is bad for it, but someone making or selling a million dollar boat doesn't want customers calling saying the genset breakers keep tripping. I suspect that's why a boat's genset might be sized to meet the highest demand possible on the boat instead of a more reasonable size.

The average person does not understand the difference between operating appliances on a boat and operating them on land. My wife seemed surprised when my inverter kicked off when she started the microwave while I was brewing a cup of coffee. It's second nature to me, but not to the average person.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:48 PM   #25
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Do these boats really have that large of an electric load requiring a 20 KW generator?
First, I think that there are two reasons gensets are so large. First, because it's much, much easier to make the genset larger than it is for the manufacturer to try and educate the average user how to manage the load. Second, because gensets are usually speced by electrical engineers, who just add up the max load, apply a 120% safety margin, and use that as the spec.

Can you get away with less? You bet. I grew up in an isolated research camp, where we had two 20Kw gensets (specified by by an electrical engineer) and a 4Kw (which was supposed to be temporary). In practice, we ran the 4Kw 3000 hours a year and the 20Kw about 250 hours a year. Yes, you have to watch the load, but that was pretty easy to learn.

One incredibly simple rule is to not use electricity to create heat. Burn propane or diesel. That will take care of a great deal of the load right there.

On my boat (a 60 footer) I use diesel heat and propane for cooking. All lights are 24 volt (although in hindsight I'd use 12). I do use an electric hot water heater, mostly for convenience. I have no AC (I'm in the PNW).

I have a 6Kw genset (50A at 110v), a 4Kw inverter, and a single 30A, 110V shorepower cable (3.3Kw). Through careful load arrangements and a smart inverter, I find I have no problems at all with load. It helps that my inverter is quite smart, it will both cut back the charger and assist when the load becomes too high.

The only situation that causes problems is when I connect to shore power and both the battery charger and hot water heater call for power. However, I rigged up a selector switch that lets me run the hot water heater through the inverter, which is smart enough to dial back the charger when the hot water heater calls.

There is only one real limitation in my system, and that is that I have to be satisfied with a 110V Splendide washer/dryer. I definitely do miss a nice big 6Kw 220V electric dryer (and FYI, this is the main reason we ran our 20Kw when I was growing up, too). I've considered installing a propane dryer, maybe I will if I ever move aboard in the PNW.

YMMV, but it works for me. I have no idea at all why you would need 20Kw.

Scott Welch
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:20 PM   #26
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PS Mods - I posted a picture of the USS John C. Stennis aircraft carrier that my son is proudly serving on and you are not allowing that and censoring.

I am not certain I want to be associated with you.

See you non Patriots later.
Your photo is still there on page 1 in post 11 of this thread.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:31 PM   #27
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Greetings,
Mr. Big. Yup just like Mr. Marin said. Page 1, post #11. Now as far as unlimited everything except food. Maybe the navy could take a page out of the Russian "trawlers" handbook that were prevalent offshore of the US in the 60's and supplement their food stocks with fishing.

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Old 03-08-2013, 11:00 PM   #28
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I thank you all for your insiteful responses. Based on the pushback from the mods here regarding my sons ship and my posting of a a USN Warship I am unsure if I will continue to research here. I am sorry to upset the mods sensativvities. The ship is actually in the fleet of the USN. Jeeezzzz.

How sad.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:13 PM   #29
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I thank you all for your insiteful responses. Based on the pushback from the mods here regarding my sons ship and my posting of a a USN Warship I am unsure if I will continue to research here. I am sorry to upset the mods sensativvities. The ship is actually in the fleet of the USN. Jeeezzzz.

How sad.
Your picture is there. 2 members posted they saw it.

Drop the attitude.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:22 PM   #30
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Your picture is there. 2 members posted they saw it.

Drop the attitude.
+3 I'm still trying to understand where this guy is coming from! Maybe this will help...........
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CVN 65.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	78.4 KB
ID:	17014  
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:30 PM   #31
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+3 I'm still trying to understand where this guy is coming from! Maybe this will help...........
I had this identical problem with a senior member recently accusing mods for censoring his picture. It was loading fine for most everyone else. Images don't always load due to things like page load speeds or slow response from remote hosts etc.

No idea how we can convince people we mods don't block them. Especially seeing as this mod has, as of today, now have 2 sons serving in the USAF. I suppose that makes me not patriotic???
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:31 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
I thank you all for your insiteful responses. Based on the pushback from the mods here regarding my sons ship and my posting of a a USN Warship I am unsure if I will continue to research here. I am sorry to upset the mods sensativvities. The ship is actually in the fleet of the USN. Jeeezzzz.

How sad.
Your picture is there. Post or don't post, we'll all survive.
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:31 PM   #33
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I do not yet own a boat.No flaming please, serious questions.
Right, no flaming
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:42 PM   #34
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Craig--- Good point. I have on rare occasions in the past had a thumbnail or photo in a post not load, or only partially load. I have always assumed this was due to some connection anomaly on the part of my computer or ISP. It always seemed to "fix itself" eventually. Perhaps that's the case here.....
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Old 03-08-2013, 11:56 PM   #35
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Marin I've been led to understand there are many variables involved with image loads. Problem is that although I'm a moderator, I'm much more of a gear head than computer programmer. While the techie folks can explain it to me I'm not fluent enough in tech jargon to explain it well to others. At work there are dozens of folks in charge of making sure the box on my desk works. I wish one of them owned a heavy cruiser on days like this.

Let me be completely clear. Trawler Forum moderators do not censor photographs. Obvious exception would be pornographic ones but as far as I've experienced that's never been an issue here.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:28 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJim View Post
I thank you all for your insiteful responses. Based on the pushback from the mods here regarding my sons ship and my posting of a a USN Warship I am unsure if I will continue to research here. I am sorry to upset the mods sensativvities. The ship is actually in the fleet of the USN. Jeeezzzz.

How sad.
Check your settings- the pic of good ol' CVN-74 (where my son is also proudly serving) is posted and displaying perfectly.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:51 AM   #37
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If living with the constant noise of a noisemaker is you goal , a pair of sets is the way to go.

If you like the sound of silence , using a propane range and a propane fridge is the answer.

A real marine fridge in 12 or 24V is far better than a Home Cheapo with an inverter , but will still eat about 100A of DC ,so 200A batt is required for each day of quiet.

A 4 or 6KW with a following inverter .would do for most operation.

Excepe as noted Air cond 24/7 is a real power hog.

If you only air cond in modest temps ., where the unit actually cycles the use of a load shedding setup will work fine.

The AC shuts down , allowing the reefer (if 120V) to operate , otherwise the HW heater can come on.

By creating a daisy chain a modest unit can do ALL your electric requirements.

No short life problems from underrloading either!
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:55 PM   #38
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Awesome

That sounds like the way to go.
I think I may try for Diesel heat, radiant or forced, not sure.
And Diesel to cook with.
PNW as well so no AC.
And maybe a small wind generator.


Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandEagle View Post
First, I think that there are two reasons gensets are so large. First, because it's much, much easier to make the genset larger than it is for the manufacturer to try and educate the average user how to manage the load. Second, because gensets are usually speced by electrical engineers, who just add up the max load, apply a 120% safety margin, and use that as the spec.

Can you get away with less? You bet. I grew up in an isolated research camp, where we had two 20Kw gensets (specified by by an electrical engineer) and a 4Kw (which was supposed to be temporary). In practice, we ran the 4Kw 3000 hours a year and the 20Kw about 250 hours a year. Yes, you have to watch the load, but that was pretty easy to learn.

One incredibly simple rule is to not use electricity to create heat. Burn propane or diesel. That will take care of a great deal of the load right there.

On my boat (a 60 footer) I use diesel heat and propane for cooking. All lights are 24 volt (although in hindsight I'd use 12). I do use an electric hot water heater, mostly for convenience. I have no AC (I'm in the PNW).

I have a 6Kw genset (50A at 110v), a 4Kw inverter, and a single 30A, 110V shorepower cable (3.3Kw). Through careful load arrangements and a smart inverter, I find I have no problems at all with load. It helps that my inverter is quite smart, it will both cut back the charger and assist when the load becomes too high.

The only situation that causes problems is when I connect to shore power and both the battery charger and hot water heater call for power. However, I rigged up a selector switch that lets me run the hot water heater through the inverter, which is smart enough to dial back the charger when the hot water heater calls.

There is only one real limitation in my system, and that is that I have to be satisfied with a 110V Splendide washer/dryer. I definitely do miss a nice big 6Kw 220V electric dryer (and FYI, this is the main reason we ran our 20Kw when I was growing up, too). I've considered installing a propane dryer, maybe I will if I ever move aboard in the PNW.

YMMV, but it works for me. I have no idea at all why you would need 20Kw.

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
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Old 03-09-2013, 03:04 PM   #39
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Not certain what you mean?

I have zero attitude as you write. I posted some questions and included a picture of what I thought was an anecdote on "unlimited power." As the John C. Stennis has.

The photo did not appear until I asked for it to be displayed, a second time. I hung around waiting for it to be "approved."

So if that is "attitude" so be it.
Do any of you have a sense of humor?

I saw no rules for posting patriotic photos so I did just that.

Political correctness will be one of the reasons for the downfall of our country.

BJ


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Your picture is there. 2 members posted they saw it.

Drop the attitude.
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:27 PM   #40
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Political correctness will be one of the reasons for the downfall of our country.

BJ
Two facts for your consideration:

First, on a system like this with users all over the world, "our" country can vary.

Second (and here I'm speaking as somebody who has been building software and web servers for over 30 years), the way that web browsers handle pictures is actually fairly complex and arcane. To make a very long story short, pictures are loaded in a completely separate operation from loading the text of the page. In fact, in many cases the pictures are loaded from completely different servers. Hence, it's completely possible for pictures to fail to load even when the rest of the page loads OK. Also, individual browsers/browser versions/OSs/firewalls/antivirus apps/cache settings/etc. may be configured in ways that cause various page elements and pitures to not load correctly (trust me, this is the bane of software developers).

But it gets even more complex than that. Many people who upload pictures use VERY LARGE pictures, which take a long time to load. I notice that the image in question is fairly large (153K) and coming from a relatively low-powered server. In my case, even on a hot machine with a very large (40Mb) pipe I see a substantial delay when that picture loads. This is exacerbated because the thumbnailing (making a small image from a large one) appears to be pretty inefficient.

Perhaps sticking to the facts and not jumping to conclusions is a way that all of "our" countries can stay out of the shallows.

Scott Welch
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