Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 03-26-2016, 09:08 AM   #41
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
Janice, your idea has merit, and has been done lots of times. Just build the bracket to mount the gen head so it can be belted off the front of the engine. No need to run the engine at 3600 rpm, just get your pulley ratio correct so the engine can deliver enough power at the lowest rpm needed to spin the gen at 3600. And no, you dont need any rpm regulation, you Kubota diesel engine has it built in, they were used in millions of gensets without added rpm regulation, the pump just does it. If you want to run the gen while cruising you will still need to set your rpm to keep the gen at 60Hz. It would take some calculating to get a good cruise/power the boat/generator setting, but experimenting would be fun. Pulleys are not that expensive. I think it would work great. An inverter/charger would make it even better. After all, a generator is nothing but a big alternator.
__________________
Advertisement

kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 11:54 AM   #42
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post

I just happened to notice my own genset specs yesterday: itís running off a 14-hp Yanmar (at 1800 RPM<s). Same approximate size as Betsy, yes?


Did you learn whether your existing inverter will start and run your small aircon?
Hi Chris. This identical engine (18hp Kubota) in a tractor uses .5 liter per hour at 1700 rpm. That's in the sticks clearing brush and such. My friend Harold is gung ho on the engine and it's fuel sipping capabilities. I'll admit that certainly piqued my interest.

Still, after five hours I know I've not yet burned a gallon of fuel -- but that's at fast idle or in gear at near idle speed. I'll have real world numbers this coming week.

Next is the new fuel line (turning that second tank back into fuel) and routing for fuel return line too for the second tank. For some reason I was not recirculating the fuel (no return lines) for the BOB engine.

Have not yet wired in the new pure sine wave inverter. It's 1200 continuous and 2400 peak which is well within the specs for the 455 watt Haier 5000btu wall-banger. Where I might have an issue is if the a/c is on I might have to shut it down to run the 700 watt microwave

My Killowatt meter shows 1000 watts though label reads 700 for the microwave. Turning the a/c temp up would keep it from cycling on (cooling) while my popcorn was popping.

I am addicted (two bowls, sometimes three!) to my single serving popcorn. There's something about fresh hot popcorn cooked in coconut oil that is simply amazing.

You know, this life of decadence is very wonderful. I'm there too Chris. And truth to tell, I do not need an air conditioner. Of course it's easy to say that when the temperature is 80 degrees and the wind is blowing. At 90-plus I'll probably be changing my tune.

That is one reason why I'm buying into the Infrastructure bit. The thing is, I'm set now exactly as Seaweed is. This tweaking is icing on the cake.

I'll be leaving this dock in a few days to give it all a whirl. Time simply flew this month! I still need to get the anchor chain ready to go. Tested the anchor light last night -- works fine. Final filling of canning jars is nearly finished. I'll cook down the turkey bones and make turkey soup starter too.

Canning allows me to make fresh soup with good ingredients at will. And the stock, with lots of bits of turkey means I can make stuffing on the stovetop in fifteen minutes with a few fresh ingredients.

Life is wonderful afloat. Thanks for the information.

Although I'm leaning toward using my alternator (free!) I'll still give a call to the generator head company and see what they say. For those of us with small engines (or even wing engines?) this might be an additional source of power.

We shall see. Thank you again.
__________________

__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 02:41 PM   #43
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
"It's 1200 continuous and 2400 peak which is well within the specs for the 455 watt Haier 5000btu wall-banger."

The usual LRC (starting current) is 300% of the normal running load , so 1500W will do fine for the start with under 500w the normal run current .

You may need to keep an eye on the DC voltage while operating as the usual 55A car alt , does very poorly when warm, maybe 40A output after 15 -20 min.

You would like to see 14+ volts , so the house batt set is charging as you operate.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2016, 04:04 PM   #44
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
.5ltrs =.13US gallons per hour.

or to put it another way at full load 18 hp should take about 1 gal per hour.

I am skeptical about the fuel use claims. .5 liters will only produce about 3 HP.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 03:33 AM   #45
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayview View Post
.5ltrs =.13US gallons per hour.

or to put it another way at full load 18 hp should take about 1 gal per hour.

I am skeptical about the fuel use claims. .5 liters will only produce about 3 HP.
I admit to being curious too.

According to the prop book guy to move at hull speed requires 8hp. She's 18hp, so would that work out to 1/2 gallon per hour using your figures?

I'd like to get some numbers on my tachometer gun too. The tach meter at the helm does not work. At a certain point I'll be able to listen and know how many rpm I'm turning. That will come with miles under her keel.

Real world numbers are upcoming. It was a mad house here in St. Pete this weekend. Every person and their dog was on the water. That is not the time I want to be out testing fuel consumption.

And thanks too for your numbers. I'm interested in learning about my Kubota.

(Still writing the articles about taking a tractor motor and turning it into a boat propulsion system... it's a biggie and I want it correct so that's been taking a lot of time. I'll post it here too, in my Tractor thread. But not yet. It's at least a week away from being ready to proof-read.)

Thank you for the additional information regarding powering a small wall-banger room air-conditioner for Seaweed. There's a lot to learn.
__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 07:30 AM   #46
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
EZ to find the sweet spot for cruising.

Borrow a GPS and on a nice flat day create a paper graph of RPM/ Speed , say every 200 rpm.

This will take a while as 200RPM is slow to effect a displacement hull, give it 2 min at each setting.

Your boat will go faster with every RPM increase BUT at a certain boat speed , the increases will get smaller and smaller.

Cruise where the living is easy and 1/2 GPH should be the norm.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 09:48 AM   #47
Senior Member
 
Steve DAntonio's Avatar
 
City: Deltaville
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 108
Janice, very unlikely you could externally regulate the 55A alternator and expect it to last, particularly with a large battery bank. External regulation should only be used on alternators designed for continuous high output operation. Most stock alternators are designed to charge start batteries and not much more, when pressed into continuous high output, by external regulators, they tend to overheat and give up pretty quickly. If you wanted more output you'd almost certainly have to go with a dedicated HO alternator and external regulator.

A final thought, if you go the gas Honda route, be sure to install a carbon monoxide detector in your cabin. CO-related deaths, while not common thankfully, do occur both ashore and aboard boats, several just occurred, ashore, last week.
__________________
Steve D'Antonio
Steve DAntonio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 09:52 AM   #48
Guru
 
City: gulf coast
Country: pinellas
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 2,199
yes, .5 GPH


if you are in S. pete I can lend you a photo tachometer to calibrate your ears. What FF said above will find a reasonably economical speed.
bayview is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2016, 12:08 PM   #49
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,884
Janice- I am putting in a serious plug for upgrading your alternator and avoiding the AC generator option. A high output alt is likely a good bit lighter and therefore easier to mount. The AC gen will require engine to run at a single rpm regardless of load. It will also require you to switch between running the engine or running the inverter. Going inverter will be seamless. And even with the gen mounted, you will still need a dc alt. Put a big dc alt on, and that is all that is needed on front of engine. But would still need belt to run water pump, that may need a little fiddling, or keep the old alt as an idler pulley.

Try running the aircon on the inverter, see how it handles it. Then decide how much battery and alternator you need.

I agree with Steve, the little alt is not designed for continuous high output and may burn up if put to that task.

Post a photo of the alt and front of engine, that will help figure what may fit.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2016, 07:31 AM   #50
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
A truck alt is usually 130A or so and about $130 at a big truck supply.

Many are Leece Neville , which are great units.

IT is BIGGER than the car alt and will need a bracket made to mount it. .

These are heavy duty and have the electrical setup to install an external regulator.

AS your battery bank is tiny , only the voltage to keep your inverter happy is required and the stock V regulatior might work fine.

I would check with your engine folks and see if a dual or triple belt pulley is available.

More belts , more time between belt adjustment or replacement.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 10:54 PM   #51
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Janice- I am putting in a serious plug for upgrading your alternator and avoiding the AC generator option. A high output alt is likely a good bit lighter and therefore easier to mount. The AC gen will require engine to run at a single rpm regardless of load. It will also require you to switch between running the engine or running the inverter. Going inverter will be seamless. And even with the gen mounted, you will still need a dc alt. Put a big dc alt on, and that is all that is needed on front of engine. But would still need belt to run water pump, that may need a little fiddling, or keep the old alt as an idler pulley.

Try running the aircon on the inverter, see how it handles it. Then decide how much battery and alternator you need.

I agree with Steve, the little alt is not designed for continuous high output and may burn up if put to that task.

Post a photo of the alt and front of engine, that will help figure what may fit.
I've been exploring the generator head and it takes 25 to 29 amps DC to power. That is half the rating of my alternator and well, it's a lot.

Ski, your idea (and others) has merit re the larger alternator. What concerns me regarding that route is this:

Over 100 amps as I understand it requires two belts. Ratings and actual amperage delivered differ, sometimes substantially.

Front end of Betsy:


Belt is off. We need to get a smaller belt.

Will run the a/c tomorrow from the 1000 watt square wave inverter. I still have not yet hooked up the pure sine wave one.

I can plug it in and give it a go -- jut haven't done it yet. It's on The List. The weather is absolutely perfect, except for the rain at night.

And thanks to all for your input.

One of my flaws is a tendency to complicate things wanting them better/etc. I can see where a generator head adds another layer of potential problems. An alternator does not.

The one I have was wired nicely. I start the engine, then turn on the alternator. Mechanic Edwin was concerned that if I ever was in a situation where I needed every bit of engine output, the alternator would take some hp away from me. So I have a switch.

Start engine. Then turn on alternator. I anticipate no issues but having the switch is insurance.

Oh, and Seaweed does have a pretty decent battery bank. She's got five Group 27's (500 amp hours total) along with a couple of Group 29's (200 more amp hours) ... I always run on Both.

With multiple sources of power regeneration there's no reason not to combine everything. The wind will blow, the sun will shine and even if I take the batts down, they will recover.

The alternator will/should (in theory) power the a/c unit without a problem. Solar and wind will take care of the rest of the boat with ease.

Okay, off to my bunk. It's been a long day. And I still didn't bail out Algae. It rained. One more thing on the To-Do list.

Thank you again for the words of wisdom. It is appreciated.
__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2016, 11:58 PM   #52
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
A generator head does not take any DC amps to power, it makes that its own self to run the rotor. Your alternator switch is a joke foisted upon you by yet another ignorant would be mechanic, just regulate it, unless you dont have any alternator regulation, then the switch just puts the alternator into full on, another really bad idea. Janice dear, as much as I love reading your posts I do think you need some good help. As we say down here, bless yur hart.
kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-01-2016, 07:30 AM   #53
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
"and even if I take the batts down, they will recover."

That depends on how far you take them down, too far and they will have a very short life ,

A SOC meter would be a good investment. SOON!!!!!

"A generator head does not take any DC amps to power, it makes that its own self to run the rotor"

It takes engine power from its drive belt to function.

"Your alternator switch is a joke foisted upon you by yet another ignorant would be mechanic, just regulate it, unless you dont have any alternator regulation, then the switch just puts the alternator into full on, another really bad idea. "

Not at all, the of on switch would simply be wired onto the V regulator power supply.

When off, the 2-4 HP of a large alt would be usefull as power.

When on the V reg will simply charge the batts as it normally would.

Switching off the V reg is how the better rotary power switches save the alt from dummies.

An aftermarket boat , not a car or truck V reg is desired as it can cut the numbers of hours to charge any batt set.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2016, 03:26 AM   #54
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulas44 View Post
A generator head does not take any DC amps to power, it makes that its own self to run the rotor. Your alternator switch is a joke foisted upon you by yet another ignorant would be mechanic, just regulate it, unless you dont have any alternator regulation, then the switch just puts the alternator into full on, another really bad idea. Janice dear, as much as I love reading your posts I do think you need some good help. As we say down here, bless yur hart.
I spoke with Bob Fury at Fabco and maybe I misunderstood regarding the DC amperage part.
Website: Manufacturers of Belt Driven Generators | Hydraulic Generators | DC Welders | Fire Truck Generators | Fabco Power ... It is likely that I do not clearly understand the system Mr. Fury invented back in 1958. I've got a lot to learn no doubt.

And he (Mr. Fury) is a fascinating gent. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when he is chatting power with someone who knows the subject well. What an education that would be!

For the time being I'm going to give the current alternator/inverter set-up a go. If it works, I'm good. Exploring an option (the generator head) does not mean it is the Best and Only solution to power production for an air-conditioner.

Mostly there are only two months when it's not too great at anchor in the summertime. That's when those afternoon naps play such an important role. If I can run the air conditioner, great. If not, I've lived without a/c most of my life. Heck, I grew up with oil lanterns. DC power was $$ and out of our range until the late 60's.

A cool glass of iced tea (with ice!) will certainly be refreshing, especially now that I do not have to haul ice to the boat. I love my refrigerator and it runs a-okay off the inverter with the solar panels I have. I've been running the microwave off shore power. The rest of the boat is strictly off-the-grid.

That sounds like a lot -- it is not. The computer (15 watts) runs off 12-volts. The DVD player (24 watts) does too. And a couple of LED (.01 watts eac), plus the VHF and depth sounder and sometimes the radio.

The refrigerator in 80 degree ambient used 60 amp hours in 24 hours.

And no, I still have not wired the new inverter. For that I need both time and no distractions. Y'all experts can do it in a jiffy without much thought no doubt. I will be reading and double-checking everything to make sure I get it right.

I installed the old one in 2010. It was not hard. Yes, I did have an ABYC certified fellow confirm I had it correct, and will do so again with this one. It's a bit more complicated though the instructions were clear.

Next kulas, I am confused.
I fail to understand why an on off switch for the alternator is a "really bad idea" -- ??

The alternator that came with Betsy was a 5 amp toy. I wanted more and thus the 55 amp Hurth.

The mounted alternator does have an internal regulator.


And FF, the furthest the batts ever went down was once in 2014 to 12.1 ... I had ten days of no wind and overcast skies. To make matters more "interesting" the doggone pine trees were dropping pollen the size of dimes. Twice a day I was cleaning the solar panels. Otherwise "low" is 12.4 or 12.3

I have voltage meters scattered throughout the boat so wherever I am I can see the voltage.

I did look at those nifty SOC units a while back. It's in the "would be nice to have" list though it is unlikely I'd cough up the $$ for one. An extra battery (or two) evens out the price and according to Calder, more is better.

That is why I run "Both" to power Seaweed. Right now, wind genny off, I'm at 12.8. By morning I'll be teetering about 12.5.

Such is life at five knots.
__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2016, 07:36 AM   #55
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,524
I have voltage meters scattered throughout the boat so wherever I am I can see the voltage.

Aint much but V meters eat a bit of power.

Best is a push button , so its only ON when you are looking.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2016, 08:52 AM   #56
Senior Member
 
Datenight's Avatar
 
City: Noank, CT
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Datenight
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 415
[QUOTE=FF;428345]A truck alt is usually 130A or so and about $130 at a big truck supply.

Many are Leece Neville , which are great units.

Janice,

I think FF is right on here. Another option is your local auto electric shop. They can build anything you want. Usually for a very reasonable price. External regulation as noted above is key for optimal output.

Rob
__________________
North Pacific 39
Datenight is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-02-2016, 09:06 AM   #57
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
I meant that it was a really bad idea only if the alternator was not being regulated. JMO, the switch is not neccessary. Generally the key switch sends power to turn on the alternator, which works fine. I dont think you would ever be in a situation to need that extra little bit of power that the alternator uses. If so, just turn off the A.C.
kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2016, 11:41 PM   #58
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Today I did run the a/c off my old 1000 watt inverter -- no problems. It comes on (even if on cold cycle versus fan) without an issue. It cools too.

That's one less thing on my mind. Now I know what I have will work so any generator head is a thing of the future.

A local is big on Infrastructure and I admit I'm becoming convinced. Still I don't want to be so busy improving Seaweed that I don't use her. I've seen that happen all too frequently.

Anyway, tomorrow if all goes well the a/c will be mounted on the overhead in my galley. I've got the hood well-insulated. It's a pretty slick set-up. To have the a/c off my head will be a real good thing. I'm right tired of moving it.

In the meantime I think that's the last of the chores to do.

Unless I can talk my friend into making me a 1/2 height tuna door that is.

Since my a/c will work off the inverter the generator head is now shelved for the near term. I cannot see any reason to spend perfectly good money for it at this point. And even in the future I've been sold on the alternator route.

It's easy. It's been done. And it's lots less expensive.

That's not to say that if a Fabco generator head arrived in my mailbox I would not have that puppy installed in a heartbeat. However it is not necessary --- not at this point. Life is good just as it is.

Happy happy happy with my Betsy.
Article(s) on turning a tractor engine into a boat propulsion system is still in progress.

Thanks to you all, especially as I explored the Generator Head technology/application thereof as it concerns Seaweed.

J.
__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2016, 12:14 AM   #59
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Oh, and another view of the alternator and label:

__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2016, 05:50 PM   #60
Guru
 
janice142's Avatar
 
City: St. Pete, FL
Country: USofA
Vessel Name: Seaweed
Vessel Model: Schucker mini-trawler
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 914
Send a message via AIM to janice142 Send a message via MSN to janice142 Send a message via Yahoo to janice142 Send a message via Skype™ to janice142
Final Update: Ski (and others) I did take your advice. I've upgraded to a 120A alternator -- same size as my 55A. It works. The a/c works a-okay from it.

Took my girl out for a three hour cruise a couple days back. Got back happy, tired and joyous after seven-plus hours. Trip included fuel (65 gallons) and visiting a guy at anchor and McDonald's for chicken nuggets, then around another bay...

Met a fellow (Pete) in a marshmallow who lead me into a safe anchorage -- one canal south of where I am docked. He and his Linda (lost their website address -- it's here somewhere!) used to own a couple of Californian's. He's nice.

Anyway, Seaweed got her fair share of attention -- everybody waves.

The alternator is the permanent solution to my power problem. It was $180 from a local outfit (Will's Starter and Alternator)

Will's is the type of place where you know they know their stuff. The walls in the back were lined with alternators. These guys have been there forever and treat their people right. Prices are good too.

I am happy.

He changed the belt to a V-belt from serpentine. At some point I might go serpentine but not now. Use what I have, right?!?

Seaweed handles wakes nicely. She is practically perfect in every way.

I wanted to say thank you and note that I listened/learned. Though a generator head may be right for some, for Seaweed the best solution is the least complicated.

My alternator is internally regulated. I won't be using the alternator at any place near top rating -- 60 amps or so would be about max output so hopefully this unit will last me for a long time. Life is wonderful afloat.

Have I mentioned how happy happy happy I am?!?!? Seriously, finally I have a boat that moves. Fueled up and am ready to go. A front was to come through here. All around had weather but so far right here has been quite pleasant.

Anyway, that's life from the slow lane. Thanks again for the input on the power. You were right. Simple is best.
__________________

__________________
Janice aboard Seaweed, living the good life afloat...
http://janice142.com
janice142 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012