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Old 05-18-2017, 07:17 AM   #21
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All the products I was using had been out for at least a year, and many of them had been out for several years. If you read many user accounts of Simrad products, you will quickly conclude that they rush products to market, often with significant known issues and promises to fix them "soon". And there have been several instances of updates that break basic functionality, don't work with some of the current transducers, etc. They are clearly more interested in selling new stuff rather than cleaning up issues with existing products. But if their stuff works in your configuration and for your use, it is nicely done. It's just a crap shoot whether it will do what you need/expect.

I certainly agree that all products have bugs, but some have more than others, and some companies place more value on product quality before it's sold, where others place more emphasis on time to market.

If Simrad had been able to give me a plan to fix the issues, I probably would have stuck with them. But their priorities were elsewhere, and continue to be. And by the way "we aren't going to fix it" is often an acceptable answer. I had sorted the problems into nuisances, important things to fix but not urgent, and things that needed to be fixed before I'd go to sea. As best I can tell, all these issues still exist in the current products since none of them have had updates except the MFDs.
Twisted,
Interesting post. What issues did you have, and what units had the problems?

I am really leaning toward Simrad but now getting second thoughts again.... hard to decide. The main thing I like with Simrad is that one can read the charts with the Easy View, which enlarges the characters by 50%.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:40 AM   #22
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I'm not a fan of Navico (Lowrance/Simrad/B&G) gear, especially for larger boats.

In order, I'd go Raymarine, then Furuno, then Garmin. Garmin is last due to its proprietary charting systems, and limited support for its legacy gear.

Furuno is great gear, but spendy and not very intuitive.

Raymarine is easy to use, has cutting edge technology, uses freeware charts as well as Navionics, and is simple to integrate.

Have you tried getting Raymarine "legacy gear" like an E-120 plotter to connect to one of their new radomes? Or perhaps get an E-120 power supply board replaced recently?
The same vintage Garmin plotter will connect to a new Fantome radar...just sayin!

All companies have devices that become unsupported legacy gear, sometimes far too soon... I'd guess that Furuno is perhaps the leader in legacy support but even they have issues with gear. The screens on the TZT Touch units delaminate and according to the tech guy I spoke to at Furuno when trying to decide between Garmin and Furuno, the TZT 9 units have all kinds of issues...

There is no correct answer! Like BandB said earlier its all about customer service or how the company responds WHEN something doesn't work as expected.

Furuno has a great reputation as does Garmin. Raymarine was always nice to me once I got through but...I've spent waaaayyyyy too much time on hold waiting for them to answer or call back. That had not changed as of last fall when I spent some time trying to get an answer about an issue on our last boat.

I've been pretty vocal about my dislike of Raymarine and I will say that the final iteration of the electronics package was very good and was easily the most reliable Ray gear we had ever had. I am simply tired of the company.

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Old 05-18-2017, 07:46 AM   #23
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I know that is the conventional wisdom, but I strongly disagree with the statement that it's impossible to deploy new software free of bugs. We developed software internally all the time and I didn't accept bugs so didn't have them. We did do extensive "rainy day" testing. I was considered a pro at breaking a system. Perhaps it's a warped mind that helps. For someone building software for the public, in addition to the testing they can always have some beta users. The key is the testing. One of the favorites I remember was pre-testing several of us were around the computer with it being demonstrated. I simply said enter a negative number in that field. The response was "no one would ever enter negative." I said, "Oh, someone will so do it." Needless to say that didn't work out well.

Nah, betcha you just didn't find the bugs that were there. You're right that normal testers would assume users wouldn't do some things... But then again, even our most creative testers couldn't anticipate all of the ham-handed user actions.

Even if a deployed system is thought to be bug free... I wouldn't label it as such. I might call it "pretty good"...

None of the software I had control of was for commercial sale. We did extensive pre-deployment testing, and the products were always usable from the git-go... but our users had primary mission to accomplish, the software was to become mission critical, the allowed testing period was therefore limited to a specific amount of time per the development/delivery timeline (barring catastrophic findings)... so it was a matter of doing the best we could... and then leaping all over bug reports as quickly as possible, afterwards. Luckily there usually weren't too many.

We were more often inundated with requests for additional features... which was OK with us. Usually those addressed use cases the original design group wasn't able to anticipate, and the products needed a few power users to get some hands-on time before those new use cases began to surface...

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Old 05-18-2017, 07:56 AM   #24
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Furuno is great gear, but spendy and not very intuitive.

I don't really understand why many people say Furuno gear isn't very intuitive. Our controls are mostly straightforward, and a couple minutes reading the manual was about all it took to figure out how to work maybe 95-98% of the features, the ones we use routinely.

I've had to read portions of the manual again a couple times, usually about specific functions I'd never used before, but even that hasn't been much of a chore.

I can't compare with most other brands, but our previous experience with a non-networked Raymarine plotter wasn't much different.

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Old 05-18-2017, 08:10 AM   #25
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95% of the features. Amazing. I'll bet I don't know how to use (or need to) 25% of the features in my machine (my phone too). My dad always told me that simple was good so nothing would brake, he always bought simple cars: heater and AM radio. I think he was correct. LOL
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:12 AM   #26
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Chris

95% of the features. Amazing. I'll bet I don't know how to use (or need to) 25% of the features in my machine (my phone too). My dad always told me that simple was good so nothing would brake, he always bought simple cars: heater and AM radio. I think he was correct. LOL

And the heater and radio were optional, too.



My grammar wasn't perfect. I meant 95-98% of the features we actually use.

Not sure I could do the math on included features that we never or almost-never use. Some of the occasional use features, I've had to read about. Partly to learn why I might want to use that kind of feature in the first place, but then sometimes the "how to" part as well.

During some of my manual reading, I did find one thing that doesn't seem to work... but it has to do with DSC-related output sentences from the (non-Furuno) radios... and I can't tell from external wiring whether the radio output wires actually go to the MFD, or elsewhere. (Everything's mostly covered in rubber boots...)

Next time I'm near the installer's shop, I expect I'll have them trace that one. As it turns out, this was one of those features I didn't know I might want... didn't discover it might exist until about 8 years after the initial installation... and I'm still not sure I might want it.

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Old 05-18-2017, 10:09 AM   #27
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My Furuno gear, lots of it, has been trouble free for 6 years. As I keep adding to it, I use a very smart tech who is on the phone with Furuno as new systems are added and field tested. Furuno's backward compatibility is very good.

Avoiding install issues and DIY mistakes play a huge role in a trouble free system. Plug and play sales BS by an overzealous DIYer or less than capable IT guy is a great sales gimmick, but in reality watch out. In many cases the integration of stuff that was not thought of by the developer dooms a system, especially in the wrong hands.

My hardware failures have been a Raymarine radar (failed after 6 years - power board engineering was not water proof) and Simrad AP (failed after 9 years due to internal voltage issues). Both since replaced by Furuno.

MFD chart plotting for us is of secondary importance since we utilize Nobeltec/Trident. So pick a provider and set it up right. Then attempt to keep from adding incompatible gizmos.
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:49 AM   #28
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Actually what pissed my dad off was they wouldn't allow him to delete the heater, it was an option early but changed over time. He lived in southeast Florida and only drove short distances, my mom's car had the options that were always breaking.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:06 AM   #29
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Chris

Actually what pissed my dad off was they wouldn't allow him to delete the heater, it was an option early but changed over time. He lived in southeast Florida and only drove short distances, my mom's car had the options that were always breaking.
Wrong thread?
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:27 AM   #30
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Twisted,

Interesting post. What issues did you have, and what units had the problems?



I am really leaning toward Simrad but now getting second thoughts again.... hard to decide. The main thing I like with Simrad is that one can read the charts with the Easy View, which enlarges the characters by 50%.

You can read all about it on MVTanglewood.com. No need to repeat it all here.

I realize that in many situation an MFD is the only practical solution, but I would encourage you to really challenge the assumption that you need one. Completely dumping the whole MFD concept was the best move I made in my electronics. MFDs are at the heart of vendor lock-in, and vendor lock-in is what causes you to suffer with some piece of gear that sucks even though everything else is OK, because you don't want to rip everything out because of one bad element and switch to another vendor to wind up with a different bad element. Dump the MFD, and now you can pick best of breed for each device/function, and interface strictly with industry standard interfaces and protocols.

From what I've seen, all the big vendors have issues if you buy into their whole package.

Furuno has superior radars, sounders, auto pilots , and support, but I don't like the MFDs

Simrad's radars are unfit for navigation, their sounders are mediocre, support is poor, and there are lots of less critical bugs that collectively make for a poor sense of quality. Hardware reliability appears poor too. They are the only vendor with huge sales on refurbished equipment every year - not a good indicator of quality in the field. But when it works, it's a well thought out system that is easy to use.

People seem to really like Garmin and that means a lot. But single source charts is a complete non-starter for me. And they are very distinctly consumer focused which doesn't fit well with with larger boats. I want a vendor who operates in the commercial market too. I did consider them for my Grady, but they didn't even make the first cut for my trawler which is intended to travel internationally.

Raymarine is a big question mark for me. When I was last selecting equipment, they were on death's door with a $10m market cap and $100m in debt. Buying the company would have been a better move than buying their products, and that's just what FLIR did. They do seem to be turned around, but have left a lot of unhappy customers in their wake who they will need to earn back.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:37 AM   #31
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Chris

Actually what pissed my dad off was they wouldn't allow him to delete the heater, it was an option early but changed over time. He lived in southeast Florida and only drove short distances, my mom's car had the options that were always breaking.

Ah.. the good, ol' days.

Well, maybe not so much, depending on local climate.

And all those nifty things cars do now, that they couldn't do before. Even if things do break, sometimes...

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Old 05-18-2017, 11:54 AM   #32
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Here's the order I'd rate for my personal use.

For offshore cruising, Transas. It's used by shippers and commercial vessels heavily and also by many of the ports along the way. Overkill for coastal cruising so on to the rest.

Furuno. We are huge Furuno fans with no problems. We also have Maxsea using Furuno equipment for everything else. Maxsea is very simple and straightforward. We use Furuno as a backup even when not as our primary. Can't say enough positive about it. And for those just looking for charting, don't overlook Maxsea. Integrated out of the box with Furuno.

Garmin. Didn't think we'd like it. On coastal cruising would still choose Furuno, but on inland waterways the Garmin charts are superior to anything else we've seen. Have had no problems with Garmin. The obsolescence issues don't really bother me as I expect that. On the boat we have Garmin, we have everything from their radar to autopilot to sonar.

Raymarine. I used Raymarine first in school while I was using Furuno on our boat. Never liked the Raymarine as well, but that may just have been comfort level. However, used Raymarine on testing Sea Ray L Series boats and it was ok, still didn't thrill me. But my number one reservation on Raymarine was a lot of systems delivered with problems on Sea Ray L Series. Many had to have components replaced. They shipped before it was tested adequately and ready. Of course I blame this on Sea Ray too in installing brand new offerings. Raymarine did respond with quick changes and sending new equipment right out.

Simrad. Have used Simrad autopilots but never their systems otherwise. The choices we had on the Sunseeker were Garmin, Raymarine and Simrad, as those are the three the factory installs. I liked the functionality of Simrad and they were pushing it heavily. We tested one boat with it. However, the more I researched, more people I talked to, the more concerned I got about their customer service. After having been spoiled by years of Furuno and Transas, I would find what many have encountered intolerable. So, no.

On a one to five scale:

Transas for offshore 5, for coastal, overkill 3
Furuno 5
Maxsea with Furuno 5
Garmin 4 but for inland 5
Raymarine 3
Simrad 1-If your customer service is poor, then I don't care beyond that.

Now, also understand that while I have a lot of experience, in the universe of equipment, none of us are more than a blip of experience. Just anecdotal. And, no real concrete evidence of how the universe of boaters feel. I rate Raymarine mediocre, yet due to relationships with builders like Sea Ray, they have a tremendous number of happy users.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:51 PM   #33
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I guess we like what we are use to unless we have had problems with a product and then it's a POS. A friend of mine installed Furuno in his new East Bay. He loves it I don't care for it, not intuitive to me.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:26 PM   #34
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I guess we like what we are use to unless we have had problems with a product and then it's a POS. A friend of mine installed Furuno in his new East Bay. He loves it I don't care for it, not intuitive to me.
We learned on Furuno. That's what our first coastal boat had. So, then everything else we tried and learned fed off that. It's odd how that happens, but you automatically think "oh I see...on the Furuno you do this to get that, but it works this way." You really only have to learn the differences and they're minor. The one you learned first may seem more intuitive. After a while of using several brands they all start to blend together.
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Old 05-18-2017, 01:41 PM   #35
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Yeah..well..... used all manufacturers and most models over the yeas except the last few.

Listing one above another seems still to be personal experience and preference versus any real factual info.

Generalities may be leaning towards some truth...but by the time one can feel good about them...all the manufacturers have changed things......
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:20 PM   #36
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"After a while of using several brands they all ....."

That's fine for some but I don't have enough brain cells to remember all that stuff.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:25 PM   #37
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BandB

"After a while of using several brands they all ....."

That's fine for some but I don't have enough brain cells to remember all that stuff.
Don't fret Irv...unless you are a delivery captain who doesnt carry his own nav package or run lots of different boats...all you need to be comfy with is your own nav suite.

I could use but often use less than 1/10 of what nav suites offer....big deal....it still is 10X more than when I had to navigate when it really counted.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:32 PM   #38
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Wow, a lot of good replies....

Twistedtree,
What an interest read on your blog, you really got into details and that info is valuable, thanks. The think that bothers me the most is the lack of response with Simrad. In talking with them over the past few months, they admit that CS has had a lot to be desired and they have taken great strides to correct it, but there's an argument to wait for proof. I find Raymarine similar and Flir says they've solved their issues. We'll see.

Now you scare me about hooking anything to NMEA 2000....

====
BandB,

You're spot on about CS... it it ain't there the product is not worth a dime. And while the promises from Simrad seem to point toward better service, I'm a bit nervous about their promise. Garmin is looking good, again.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:44 PM   #39
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"After a while of using several brands they all ....."

That's fine for some but I don't have enough brain cells to remember all that stuff.
There's another difference too. They're all computer systems. I grew up using computers all the time. I used them every day of my career. I can't recall the last day I wasn't on some type of computer including tablets, at some point. So, they're an integral part of my normal life.

Meanwhile, engines are totally foreign to me. I never have even changed oil in a car. Know a little about boat engines but mainly to identify things and no more about fuel filters. So, I have no comfort in an area most of you are skilled.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:55 PM   #40
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It's not that, it is just usung the different manufactures' products and sering how the software works....

And they have all changed, better for the most part than when I would work boat shows for a marine electronics dealers and could show every major brand, down to the depths of software in my sleep.

Each had its own pattern, and Garmin came along and was definitely the most user friendly.

Now I am not so sure.....and till you work one for hours they all can be daunting, more than just the basics will require time put in.
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