Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-20-2019, 05:28 PM   #1
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
First post: Trying to navigate the navigation hardware/software maze

Greetings!

A bit of background: my wife and I have decided to buy a (used) long-range, ocean-going motor boat and spend perhaps 6 months per year exploring North America's West Coast, from Washington up to Alaska. After a season or two we'll want to venture much farther, perhaps down to Mexico, up the Sea of Cortez, across to the Galapagos, through the Panama Canal and into the Caribbean, and from there over to Europe.

To that end we've engaged the services of a "buyers' broker" to help us find a suitable boat and coach us through the acquisition/familiarization/equipping/updating processes.

In the meantime we've been researching the ins & outs of various systems, including navigation systems, both hardware and software.

What a dog's breakfast.

At least that's how it looks to me, with mutually incompatible proprietary chart formats, software that will only communicate with certain brands of hardware through certain proprietary interfaces, etc. etc. And it gets worse: electronic charts that can only be used on one machine at a time (e.g by plugging in a USB thumb drive), can't be backed up, and require a login and a key code every time you use them.

I'm hoping this is a mistaken impression, and that the situation isn't really as bad as it looks. Or if it is, that there are workarounds.

Here's a preliminary list of what I consider essential:

1) A large combination touchscreen/pushbutton chartplotter at the main helm, and if the boat has a flying bridge, a second chartplotter up above. The second unit could be smaller, and lack pushbuttons since it won't be the primary navigation/piloting tool.

2) At least one laptop computer to serve as a backup, and enable the navigator to plan and plot courses anywhere on the boat, and on shore. Probably a MacBook, since I abominate Windows 10 and wouldn't have it on board (bet our lives on a computer that might insist on an update at any time? Not likely).

3) Possibly a third chartplotter to use in the tender. This could be an Android device or, more likely, an iPad for simplicity's sake. Might even be an iPhone, I don't know.

4) Electronic charts—both vector and raster—that can be used anywhere, any time, on a variety of devices; and backed up in case the primary onboard system croaks.

Of course we'll also want paper charts, pilot charts, cruising guides, and all the rest of it. Heck, I might even spring for a sextant and learn the rudiments of celestial navigation.

So I'm trying to thread my way through the maze, looking for suggestions and possible solutions from more experienced cruisers. This means pretty much anyone who owns a boat and has travelled more than, say, 50 miles on it.

Thanks in advance,

Blind Owl, future ocean voyager.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 06:02 PM   #2
TF Site Team
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,166
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Welcome Blind Owl. I must say, from the outset, you appear already to have learnt a helluvalot, so my response is to just say, yes, just keep doin' what you're doin'. Research, and check and check again.

Actually you'll find that the current nav gear is better than your current opinion, and pretty intuitive to use, and reliable. Some redundancy is good, but you will not be in a 747, so don't go overboard over that.

As to finding the right vessel? From your description as to what you want to do, now and in the future, I'm sure others will also agree, you need to be looking either at the first boat being a learning platform, so not necessarily ocean capable, and your second boat needs to be that. Or...you look now, (if budget allows, and it sounds like it does), towards a near new Norhavn 60 or bigger, or Selene, or Fleming of similar size and condition. I've kept those recommendations very broad and non-specific, as you are in such an early stage. Others will be more specific in their suggestions, no doubt.
__________________

__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 06:16 PM   #3
Guru
 
High Wire's Avatar
 
City: Cape May, NJ and Englewood, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Irish Lady
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,581
Welcome aboard. There are several contributors here on TF that have gone through electronic suite nightmares. Twistedtree comes to mind immediately.



Here is just one:
Change out of electronics on my boat

Good luck with your search.
__________________
Archie
1984 Monk 36 Hull #46
Currently in Cape May, NJ
High Wire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 06:18 PM   #4
Guru
 
Crusty Chief's Avatar
 
City: Las Vegas/Portland
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pairadice
Vessel Model: Selene 47
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,317
Welcome aboard Blind Owl,

Your well on the way to finding the boat. Good luck with your search.

As to the navigation dilemma, work with what the boat comes with first. Once you have worked with it and understand how everything works, or is supposed to work, you’ll have a better understanding of what you want.
We have an older Raymarine system that still works and has done so for the last 4 years. In order to “Upgrade” the system, 60-100K (or more) depending on the new system.
We use IPads with Navionics as our primary navigation tool and the old raymarine as our backup. When cruising, we can sit anywhere on the boat to plot courses, time currents and tides, and estimate travel times for the next days cruise.

Hope to see ya out on the water someday!

Cheers
__________________
John & Tracey
Pairadice S4714
http://mvpairadice.blogspot.com/
" I can explain, but I can't make you understand"
Crusty Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 06:54 PM   #5
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,398
Welcome! One person's thoughts....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post


1) A large combination touchscreen/pushbutton chartplotter at the main helm, and if the boat has a flying bridge, a second chartplotter up above. The second unit could be smaller, and lack pushbuttons since it won't be the primary navigation/piloting tool.
I love touchscreens on land. On a vessel, I can't really see the point. I upgraded my monitor and had that option, but didn't bother. As a general observation, if you end up installing electronics, steer clear of Simrad, which is what I have. Good quality, until you need support. They have a policy of throwing away all spare parts the day after they come out with a new model, so you SOL if you can't find the needed part on a dealer's shelf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post
2) At least one laptop computer to serve as a backup, and enable the navigator to plan and plot courses anywhere on the boat, and on shore. Probably a MacBook, since I abominate Windows 10 and wouldn't have it on board (bet our lives on a computer that might insist on an update at any time? Not likely).
I assume that if Dante rewrote the Inferno today he would add an 8th ring of hell for Microsoft executives. That said Win 10 doesn't demand an update unless you have Internet, so it's a non issue, at least in my experience with a Win 10 system on board. You do need a laptop backup and my suggestion is that you look at using a laptop to host the navigation software (Coastal Explorer, for example) and replicating dumb monitors for display. That keeps you outside proprietary charting systems, since Coastal Explorer uses NOAA, CHS type charts. I have two laptops on board. One primary as host and another as backup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post
3) Possibly a third chartplotter to use in the tender. This could be an Android device or, more likely, an iPad for simplicity's sake. Might even be an iPhone, I don't know.
Deluxe solution, but its utility will depend on the tender. If you have one capable of getting a few miles away from the mother ship, it can be useful. If not, you'll likely never need it, but it would always be appreciated. But, you won't be able to depend on cellular service in most of the interesting places to visit in the PNW, so it should probably be a dedicated system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post
4) Electronic charts—both vector and raster—that can be used anywhere, any time, on a variety of devices; and backed up in case the primary onboard system croaks.

Of course we'll also want paper charts, pilot charts, cruising guides, and all the rest of it. Heck, I might even spring for a sextant and learn the rudiments of celestial navigation.
With Coastal Explorer, NOAA charts are free and the CHS charts are a lot cheaper than you can buy them from CHS. We carry paper charts, and I guess that is the prudent thing to do, but to be honest, with a main system, plus a couple of backups dealing with paper is probably a waste of space, money and time. Many will disagree with me, and they may be right. We do appreciate having the paper small scale charts used for planning, not navigating, but that's about it.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 07:35 PM   #6
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Thanks for the warm welcomes, and the advice. Any boat we buy will have an existing nav system, so yes, the first job will be to familiarize ourselves with it: find out what if anything needs immediate replacing/updating, and what can be left for later.

At the end of the month we'll be heading to the Seattle Boat Show to meet our broker for the first time, and to absorb what knowledge we can. We expect to come back better armed and better informed, and confirmed in our choice of a buyers' broker.

Cheer, eh? (as we're alleged to say in Canada)
__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 07:36 PM   #7
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23- outboard
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,409
It sounds like you haven't operated a coastal trawler yet, much less a passagemaker capable of going all the places you want to go.


I think I would focus more on becoming a seaworthy, ocean going captain and less on the vagaries of integrated electronics.


David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 07:41 PM   #8
Guru
 
O C Diver's Avatar
 
City: Fort Myers, FL... Summers in Crisfield, MD
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slow Hand
Vessel Model: Cherubini Independence 45
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,820
Welcome to the forum!
I second Crusty Chief's recommendation. Bought my boat with a decent suite of Garmin chartplotters and accessories. Had every intention of pulling it all out and going Furuno like my charter boat. The electronics guy I've used for 20 years was pushing me toward Simrad (glad I didn't go there). Cruised the boat 1,200 miles in a few weeks to where the refit was done. In that time, I found that I really liked basically what I had ( this isn't about Garmin). I ended up adding another MFD of the same model as the originals, a new radar antenna, a new AIS, and several 4" gauge displays. So, the cruise told me what I liked and what I wanted to change for that particular boat and the type of cruising I plan to do with it.

Ted
__________________
Blog: mvslowhand.com
I'm tired of fast moves, I've got a slow groove, on my mind.....
I want to spend some time, Not come and go in a heated rush.....
"Slow Hand" by The Pointer Sisters
O C Diver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2019, 07:41 PM   #9
Guru
 
menzies's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville
Country: USA
Vessel Name: SONAS
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan 53
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 3,786
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post
Thanks for the warm welcomes, and the advice. Any boat we buy will have an existing nav system, so yes, the first job will be to familiarize ourselves with it: find out what if anything needs immediate replacing/updating, and what can be left for later.

At the end of the month we'll be heading to the Seattle Boat Show to meet our broker for the first time, and to absorb what knowledge we can. We expect to come back better armed and better informed, and confirmed in our choice of a buyers' broker.

Cheer, eh? (as we're alleged to say in Canada)
Can you share with us what boating experience you have?

It would help us help you!
menzies is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 12:10 PM   #10
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies View Post
Can you share with us what boating experience you have?

It would help us help you!
Our experience is limited to the occasional day sail, in both power and sailboats, and several courses we've taken: most recently to acquire mandatory (in Canada) Pleasure Craft Operator's Certificates and Maritime Radio Operator's Certficates.

Not much, I admit, but (to quote Dave Gerr's phrase) I've been nautically obsessed all my life: reading, studying, learning, researching, and absorbing everything I could about boats, seamanship, and the sea. Also forming some pretty strong opinions about the sort of cruising we want to do and the sort of boat we want to do it in. Maybe my Danish heritage (I was born in Copenhagen) has something to do with it, I don't know. At any rate, this is what my wife and I have decided to do with our twilight years, and she's every bit as eager and committed as I am.

I'm 67 and my former child bride is 66, which means that our first boat will most likely be our last. If we get 10 or even 5 years' use out of it before we have to swallow the anchor, we'll consider it time and money well spent.

But it will be a big leap—you might almost call it an act of faith—so we'll be taking it one step at a time.

The plan is to find the right boat, make sure all her systems are up to snuff, and hire a qualified training captain to bring her back to B.C. with us acting as crew under instruction. Depending on where we find her, this will probably take several weeks or more. We don't expect to find the right boat close to home, but if we do, we'll keep the captain on until he (or she) deems us ready to carry on by ourselves.

Then we'll begin making short cruises in our beautiful coastal waters, then longer cruises, all the while taking additional courses as and when they become available, until we feel confident in ourselves and in our boat. Only then will we start making bigger plans.

We don't have any shoreside obligations to speak of, so we'll be free to use the boat as much as we want, possibly living and cruising aboard her for months at a time. If we find that a cruising lifestyle doesn't suit us, or if health problems intervene, we'll sell the boat, take the loss, and tell ourselves that it was worth a shot. We believe it is.

re: my original post, I inquired about navigation systems first because that seems the most confusing of all onboard systems. It may turn out that our dream boat is already equipped with a good, reliable, and reasonably up-to-date system, in which case we won't have to worry about it for a while. But if the system needs immediate updating and/or replacement, I'd like to know what my choices are and how to decide between them.

Cheers!
__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 12:22 PM   #11
Guru
 
boatpoker's Avatar
 
City: Port Credit
Country: Ontario
Vessel Name: DIRT FREE
Vessel Model: Benford Fantail 38
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2,398
Don't buy any nav gear at all until you spend some time with whatever comes on the boat you buy and learn a bit more.

It would be very easy to drop 50k on your wish list. It would be a shame to buy it all then discover it does not suit your needs or your expectations simply because you did not know all the questions to ask.
__________________
If you can live with the consequences, go for it - wg
Y'am what y'am an' thats' all that y'am - Popeye
I had an allergic reality - Jillie the Bean
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 01:23 PM   #12
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Don't buy any nav gear at all until you spend some time with whatever comes on the boat you buy and learn a bit more.

It would be very easy to drop 50k on your wish list. It would be a shame to buy it all then discover it does not suit your needs or your expectations simply because you did not know all the questions to ask.
Thanks! Actually, we don't have a wish list yet (except for a suitable boat, of course) but I'd like to be able to make informed decisions in case they need to be made shortly after we buy the boat. If nothing needs immediate attention, we'll happily proceed with what we have. Believe me, if we can save money without compromising our safety, we will.

My original question was probably too broad, and premature given our lack of hands-on experience. Once we've acquired some experience—along with a specific boat with specific equipment and systems—I'll have some of the answers...along with plenty more questions.
__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 02:20 PM   #13
Guru
 
Crusty Chief's Avatar
 
City: Las Vegas/Portland
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Pairadice
Vessel Model: Selene 47
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,317
Blind Owl,

Care to share with us the type/manufacturer boat you are leaning towards? And have you had the opportunity to walk the docks and step aboard a few different boats? Maybe even a large boat show.
I think you’ll find that most boat owners are willing to give a short tour of there’s, but maybe even more important is the information you will gain from just a bit of your time. This in turn will assist you both in making your list of needs and wants.
Just a suggestion.
__________________
John & Tracey
Pairadice S4714
http://mvpairadice.blogspot.com/
" I can explain, but I can't make you understand"
Crusty Chief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 02:48 PM   #14
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,662
Welcome aboard. Hold off on electronics until you get some cruising under your belt. Get the boat and then use it. Time will tell you what you want and need. Good luck.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 03:44 PM   #15
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Hi again, Crusty,

We're looking for 2500+ nm range, not only for long ocean passages but for extended island-hopping and coastal cruising in areas we want to explore in detail. Comfortable but not elaborate accommodations for two, plus less comfortable accommodations for two guests. Any more than two and they can sleep on settees, or wherever.

Despite our desire for redundancy wherever redundancy makes sense, we'd prefer a single engine for overall efficiency, fuel economy, and safety in case of a hard grounding. A 'wing' engine would be nice to have, but in any case the main engine has to be reliable as a stone axe, or as near to it as we can find. Any brokerage boat that has a Gardner gets an extra-long look from us, but alas, they're few & far between, and most are unsuitable for other reasons.

We have a strong preference for all-metal construction vs. fiberglass, though we'll certainly consider any fiberglass boat that fits our requirements (including cost) provided it's stoutly built.

As for brands, I must admit that Nordhavns don't appeal to us (duck and cover!): very nice boats, but most are too tall and storky-looking for our taste. Some of the now-discontinued 57s might do, if we could afford one. They look as if they're sitting in the water rather than perched on top of it. I like the look of Flemings, though I don't like the range...or the fuel bills they're bound to run up. We don't feel the need to cruise at 18 knots, however useful that might be in a pinch. Plus they're 'way out of our snack bracket.

Our tastes are relatively simple and relatively traditional, and this includes interiors. Much as we love wood, on many boats we've eyeballed—Nordhavns and Flemings among them—it almost amounts to saturation overkill. We certainly won't settle for workboat-grade finish, whether inside or out, but we don't need much of the elaboration that seems mandatory these days. Reasonable comfort in a boat that's as simple, safe, and reliable as we can find, that's all we really need.

Believe it or not, we've seen several brokerage listings that look appealing to our eyes and seem to meet our druthers, including all-metal construction and selling price (only the start, I know). But we'll let our broker make all inquiries on our behalf.

As mentioned in my second post, we'll meet him at the end of the month at the Lake Union Boat Show. We've set aside two days for that, one to kick tires and soak up the nautical ambience, the other to get acquainted with him and reach a thorough understanding of our needs, wishes, wants, and prejudices. Good suggestion re: boat shows. We're already on it.

Hope to meet you out on the water some day, along with many other forum members. Gee, what a friendly place...

Cheers!
__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 04:10 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
klee wyck's Avatar
 
City: Seattle and Bellingham
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Klee Wyck and Libra
Vessel Model: Lowland 48 and Noordzee Kotter 52
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 365
I find your approach to this endeavor and these choices quite rational and refreshing. I expect you will do fine regardless of input from here.


I would just add the following in support of patience with changes to the marine electronics suite in a boat you find otherwise satisfactory.
First a disclaimer: both of my boats have marine electronics suites, one mostly Furuno and one almost all Simrad. I like them both though neither is perfect. The Funruno boat came equipped that way and the Simrad boat was a complete replacement scheme.
I suppose I would just do it that way again out of a human urge to conform to societal norms but here is what I really think and the rationale behind being patient: I almost think marine specific electronics are almost obsolete. I certainly would not invest in that industry and expect it to be a secular growth industry. Relatively cheap over the counter software installed on relatively cheap over the counter hardware (laptop, pad, Surface) is likely more than adequate for MOST applications including some pretty ambitious cruising plans. I have heard the arguments about robustness to the marine environment but don't buy it.

In my view we mostly overthink and overdo this comnav aspect of our cruising lives. YMMV.
__________________
Bill
klee wyck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 05:18 PM   #17
Member
 
Blind Owl's Avatar
 
City: Abbotsford BC
Country: Canada
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by klee wyck View Post
I find your approach to this endeavor and these choices quite rational and refreshing. I expect you will do fine regardless of input from here.
I'm happy that you think so. The decision itself may or may not be rational, but since it's what we want to do, we're trying to approach it as rationally as we can, with safety—ours and others'—as our top priority.

[ edit/afterthought: and I agree, we may be overthinking this. Better over than under, I say. The 'under' will come soon enough.]
__________________
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood." — Tom Robbins
Blind Owl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 07:02 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
City: Green Cove Springs
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 40
The Sea Spirit 60 was built by Queenship in the PNW. Met someone who had one and they were fairly positive.
PaulGel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2019, 08:29 PM   #19
TF Site Team
 
City: Brisbane
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,166
Send a message via Skype™ to Peter B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Owl View Post
Our experience is limited to the occasional day sail, in both power and sailboats, and several courses we've taken: most recently to acquire mandatory (in Canada) Pleasure Craft Operator's Certificates and Maritime Radio Operator's Certficates.
Well, I think you're being modest there, because the approach you are taking is, in my view, virtually the perfect way to get into such an interesting and challenging venture, and I suspect way more informed than most of us are/were when we got into boating. Generally the heart thing overwhelms the head approach, and folk dive in way sooner. In fact, my only concern is your approach has been so calculated, but for the fact you have done some sailing in small craft, I would be concerned you might not like big boat sailing as much as you hoped when you get to do it. Just sayin'...

I have to admit when I bought my first sail boat, a trailer yacht, (NZ terminology), I had only read up about it - (avidly, I must admit), as my entire sailing experience amounted to, as a kid, rowing along the shore upwind in a rowing boat, then having someone hold up a sheet of plywood, while we skulled back downwind, steering with one oar. But that was all it took. I was hooked..!

Our first outing in this 20ft trailer yacht, was pretty much... "Ok guys, the book says we pull up and adjust this front sail like this, and this big sucker on the mast like this, and point the boat with the rudder so the little arrow thingy on the top of the mast always points so the tail is outside the vee-shaped thing below it, and HEY!...look guys, we're sailing..!"

Three boats later and a fair number of years, I had done the Boatmaster and Coastal Yachtmaster courses, and knew quite a lot more, but I was way too impatient to do all that before I got a boat. So, as I said at the top, just keep doin' what you're doin', but try to get out on the water with someone and have some fun while doing the search thing, and enjoy the whole process.
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-22-2019, 07:25 AM   #20
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 18,928
Charts , chart kits or TV like GPS is fine inshore , where the dangers are.

Offshore a fix once or twice a day suffices , since its hard to go aground mid ocean.

A hand held GPS and set of charts is 10,000% better than folks had even a few years ago , when all they had was charts and needed skill to know where they were on the chart.

After you have managed to successfully navigate inshore with minimal gear its time to decide if you wish to watch a screen instead of day markers , ranges etc.
__________________

FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
charts, hardware, navigation, software

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012