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Old 01-22-2019, 08:39 AM   #21
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...might not like big boat sailing as much as you hoped when you get to do it. Just sayin'...
It's a definite possibility, and one we've considered. But early on in our discussion I said to my wife, "You know what, baby? If we go ahead with this, we may well regret it. But if we could have done it, and don't, I think we'll certainly regret it." She thought about it a while and said, "You know what? I think you're right."

That pretty much ended the "should we, shouldn't we?" debate. Since then it's been mostly a matter of deciding how best to go about it, with a view to maximizing our chances of success while minimizing our chances of failure (loss of health, life, sanity).

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I have to admit when I bought my first sail boat, a trailer yacht, (NZ terminology), I had only read up about it - (avidly, I must admit), as my entire sailing experience amounted to, as a kid, rowing along the shore upwind in a rowing boat, then having someone hold up a sheet of plywood, while we skulled back downwind, steering with one oar. But that was all it took. I was hooked..!

Our first outing in this 20ft trailer yacht, was pretty much... "Ok guys, the book says we pull up and adjust this front sail like this, and this big sucker on the mast like this, and point the boat with the rudder so the little arrow thingy on the top of the mast always points so the tail is outside the vee-shaped thing below it, and HEY!...look guys, we're sailing..!"
Sounds like a gas, wish I could have been there! As for me being modest, excuse me while I brag about my 100% racing record: one round-the-buoys club race in a 26' Thunderbird sloop, one win.

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Three boats later and a fair number of years, I had done the Boatmaster and Coastal Yachtmaster courses, and knew quite a lot more, but I was way too impatient to do all that before I got a boat. So, as I said at the top, just keep doin' what you're doin', but try to get out on the water with someone and have some fun while doing the search thing, and enjoy the whole process.
Win or lose, we expect to have lots of fun along the way.
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Old 01-22-2019, 08:55 AM   #22
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As already suggested, you are putting the chart before the horse.

The Seattle boat show is a great place to visit and learn. Unfortunately it focuses on boat sales, glitz, glamour and visuals. Keep in mind critical issues such as maintenance access, heavy PNW rain, fuel efficiency, storage, sight lines, ease of foredeck movements during snotty condition anchoring, how does one quickly get on and off boat when docking, etc.

Before worrying about electronic toy selections, a good understanding of manual charting and dead reckoning sure helps. Many of us started boating when all we had was a chart, compass and watch. This background helps to put the blather about Garmin vs Simrad vs Furuno vs you name it, in focus.

One last comment, buy a vessel that the next owner really wants, not some one off perfect for your own needs boat. For a perfect boat, start with looking seriously at two - Fleming and Nordhavn. Then focus on what you can afford that still has many of the attributes of these two.

Good hunting!
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Old 01-22-2019, 09:07 AM   #23
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Charts , chart kits or TV like GPS is fine inshore , where the dangers are.

Offshore a fix once or twice a day suffices , since its hard to go aground mid ocean.

A hand held GPS and set of charts is 10,000% better than folks had even a few years ago , when all they had was charts and needed skill to know where they were on the chart.

After you have managed to successfully navigate inshore with minimal gear its time to decide if you wish to watch a screen instead of day markers , ranges etc.
Sound advice. Given the relatively modest cost of half-decent electronic nav equipment, I think it would be nuts to forego the convenience and enhanced safety it can provide.

Likewise I think it would be nuts to trust it completely, or be utterly dependent on it without having a plan 'B' in case of system failure. As far as we're concerned that definitely includes being able to pilot using our eyes, senses, knowledge, and charts. Traditional methods like paper charts, dividers, parallel rules, handheld calculators...oh, wait.

Not only for the suspenders-and-belt factor, but for the simple satisfaction of being able to do it the old-fashioned way. I would pity any fool who ventured far and found him/herself lost and helpless without his/her electronic nav gear.
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Old 01-22-2019, 11:29 AM   #24
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Anything you put on the tender must be waterproof due to spray. We have a Furuno NavNet with large monitors top and bottom and use a Garmin in the tender. The Garmin can also be mounted in the pilothouse as a backup.

We also run Navionics on our phones and iPads for route planning and for more backup, if that fails I think there are a couple of handhelds around too.
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Old 01-22-2019, 12:40 PM   #25
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sunchaser wrote:

The Seattle boat show is a great place to visit and learn. Unfortunately it focuses on boat sales, glitz, glamour and visuals. Keep in mind critical issues such as maintenance access, heavy PNW rain, fuel efficiency, storage, sight lines, ease of foredeck movements during snotty condition anchoring, how does one quickly get on and off boat when docking, etc.

Oh, we're pretty much glitz-and-glamourproof. I'm well on my way to being an old curmudgeon—working on it, anyway—and before she retired, my girl was a purchasing agent for several medium-to-large manufacturing companies. If anyone is resistant to salesmen and sales pitches, she is. As for PNW rain, we're pretty much immune to that, too. Abbotsford, BC is about a 3-hour drive North of Seattle, where we get about 60% more annual precipitation on average. Some of it even comes down as snow.

Before worrying about electronic toy selections, a good understanding of manual charting and dead reckoning sure helps. Many of us started boating when all we had was a chart, compass and watch. This background helps to put the blather about Garmin vs Simrad vs Furuno vs you name it, in focus.

That's our firm intention, but unless our hypothetical dream boat already has a solid, reliable, and reasonably up-to-date nav system on board, we may need to make some choices sooner than we'd like. Given what appears to be a state of near-chaos in the marine electronics industry, with many boat owners tearing their hair out trying to get systems to work and co-operate, I'd hate to go into it with a big blind spot.

One last comment, buy a vessel that the next owner really wants, not some one off perfect for your own needs boat. For a perfect boat, start with looking seriously at two - Fleming and Nordhavn. Then focus on what you can afford that still has many of the attributes of these two.

We're fortunate in that resale value isn't even a concern. If all we get out of boating is the memories and experience we accumulate, we can write off the monetary cost without shedding a tear. On Jeff Merrill's website (jmys.com), one of his questions to would-be trawler owners is "How much can you afford to invest (lose)?" Since our answer is "All of it," we can concentrate on finding the perfect boat even though there's no such thing. Short of sinking a boatload of lawyers and being sued into poverty and destitution, we'll be OK.

Good hunting!

Thanks!
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Old 01-23-2019, 07:54 AM   #26
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"but unless our hypothetical dream boat already has a solid, reliable, and reasonably up-to-date nav system on board, we may need to make some choices sooner than we'd like."

"Up to date" changes constantly.

Best to install, newest, latest goodies shortly before departure.

Many "new" nav goodies are out of date between the purchase and installation.

For best long term performance and reliability the gear used by the commercials like Furuno's last version will not have glitz , but grand reliability.
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Old 01-28-2019, 12:18 PM   #27
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I'll chime in-- Not a PNW cruiser, but veteran of 10 yrs full time cruising & 38K nm, so I possess bonafides. A quick cliche on all this is 'you don't know what you don't know'. But it's true. You won't know what works best for you until you get out there and get some experience, applies to selection of the boat as well as the electronics. You'll have your own style of cruising, it would be a shame to invest time and coin in the latest and greatest only to discover that it doesn't work well for your style. I'm a big believer in the list- must haves, wanna's, nice, and deal breakers. Establish the list, then apply it to each boat you consider. If you can charter, that'll be a HUGE help in focusing your list. TrawlerFest or other trawler crawl events are immensely helpful, you learn from the folks using the boat, they're generally forthcoming about what they love and what's not to love on their boat. As others have noted, brokers and reps can offer input, but know that it's biased and of limited value. There's a PNW Selene rendezvous coming up, go to the Selene owner's site http://www.seleneowners.org/home.php and check for dates. They're a pretty good bunch, and generally really like their vessels.

Good luck in the hunt!
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:55 PM   #28
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We are in a similar but a few steps behind you. We live in Langley, just down the road. There are very few boats that fit your ( and our) criteria completely.

You will make mistakes out there and the boat has to be able to overcome. Good to see you are looking in the right area. If Jeff is your guy, he can help a lot.
We decided against metal as a first choice as they tend to be one off in the range we looked at. I was concerned they were not fully ocean tested. You buy a Selene, Nordhavn or the like, you know they will go the distance safely and take way more abuse than you can.
My 2¢ is to make lists as had been said before, got to have, nice to have, deal breakers. Once you get the boat you want and get some miles in it, the electronics piece will fall into place. You will be astounded at how much a simple iPad and a few apps can do compared to “marine electronics” only a few years old.
You should have a look at the Nordhavn Dreamers site. There is a lot of knowledge there and not just dreamers but a lot of expirenced owners as well.
Good luck
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:01 PM   #29
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I'll chime in-- Not a PNW cruiser, but veteran of 10 yrs full time cruising & 38K nm, so I possess bonafides. A quick cliche on all this is 'you don't know what you don't know'. But it's true. You won't know what works best for you until you get out there and get some experience, applies to selection of the boat as well as the electronics. You'll have your own style of cruising, it would be a shame to invest time and coin in the latest and greatest only to discover that it doesn't work well for your style. I'm a big believer in the list- must haves, wanna's, nice, and deal breakers. Establish the list, then apply it to each boat you consider. If you can charter, that'll be a HUGE help in focusing your list. TrawlerFest or other trawler crawl events are immensely helpful, you learn from the folks using the boat, they're generally forthcoming about what they love and what's not to love on their boat. As others have noted, brokers and reps can offer input, but know that it's biased and of limited value. There's a PNW Selene rendezvous coming up, go to the Selene owner's site http://www.seleneowners.org/home.php and check for dates. They're a pretty good bunch, and generally really like their vessels.

Good luck in the hunt!
Thanks! We've been accumulating lists as we go, and of course they keep getting longer and longer. Latest and greatest isn't even on our 'wish' list, never mind the 'must have'.

This week we'll be spending two days at the Seattle Boat Show, where we'll have a chance to eyeball at least one Selene and perhaps talk to some owners. Nice-looking boats, although they're probably out of our snack bracket.

By the time we head home we'll have soaked up a lot of info, found answers to at least some of our questions, and (no doubt) discovered lots of new points to ponder.
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:09 PM   #30
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I'd stay away from plotter systems that require proprietary charts. USA charts are free to download. Maybe start with OpenCPN, a free to download, computer based charting system.

I use a laptop for portability, but have a main computer with a large monitor for overall navigation. The nice thing about a computer based system is you can work at home, plan your routes and later transfer them to the onboard system or carry your laptop.

Boat shows are pushy salespeople trying to sell you things you may not need. They'll sell you a lake boat for ocean use if they can. And the salespeople will load you up with bells and whistles you'll never use. Last week they might have been selling used cars.

Local electronics dealers are salespeople or technicians first, not experienced captains or navigators. Generally, I've found dealers that service commercial boats more reliable and knowledgeable than those that primarily service yachts.
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:13 PM   #31
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After fighting with the vagaries of different software systems, I use a simple navionics on an iPad platform. It is simple, intuitive, portable. The only caution is that the system is power hungry at least compared with a simple iPad. So you need a way to recharge at the helm station.
PS: My son, who is a pilot and flies fires uses an iPad with ForeFlight software. It is easier than the high priced Garmin systems.
My 2 cents: Go with what is in there, learn the boat, meanwhile use an iPad with Navionics
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Old 01-28-2019, 03:47 PM   #32
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The Garmin was $11,500 US dollars to install in the helicopter, ForeFlight on the iPad was 10x better, faster and had more information at 10% of the cost, but It was not certified
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Old 01-28-2019, 04:11 PM   #33
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We carry paper charts, and I guess that is the prudent thing to do, but to be honest, with a main system, plus a couple of backups dealing with paper is probably a waste of space, money and time.
Wifey B: We print our own paper charts if desired but never desire. Last time we did print some was on our cruise to Montreal and back and we printed them so our niece could mark on them, with assistance, where we'd been each day. She just did that at the end of the day to show kids in day care when she got back home. During the day though she loved to look at the plotter as it and radar fascinated her. She was 4 years old at the time. She's already boating crazy.
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Old 01-28-2019, 06:01 PM   #34
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Maybe others mentioned it.. but make sure you have an autopilot… having it interfaced to the nav system/chart plotter is a very nice thing... you are looking at having lots of redundancy in nav equipment... would be much more complex to have the auto pilot interfaced to your backup nav systems..
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Old 01-28-2019, 06:35 PM   #35
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Turns out I live close to you and recently purchased a boat that has done most of your dream save the Galapagos and Europe. All nave was done with a laptop, rose point coastal explorer software, $300 and an integrated autopilot. As you’re already aware, no need to concern yourself with this yet but keep up the research.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:10 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dean Russell View Post
We are in a similar but a few steps behind you. We live in Langley, just down the road. There are very few boats that fit your ( and our) criteria completely.

You will make mistakes out there and the boat has to be able to overcome. Good to see you are looking in the right area. If Jeff is your guy, he can help a lot.
We decided against metal as a first choice as they tend to be one off in the range we looked at. I was concerned they were not fully ocean tested. You buy a Selene, Nordhavn or the like, you know they will go the distance safely and take way more abuse than you can.
My 2¢ is to make lists as had been said before, got to have, nice to have, deal breakers. Once you get the boat you want and get some miles in it, the electronics piece will fall into place. You will be astounded at how much a simple iPad and a few apps can do compared to “marine electronics” only a few years old.
You should have a look at the Nordhavn Dreamers site. There is a lot of knowledge there and not just dreamers but a lot of expirenced owners as well.
Good luck
Thanks, neighbour. We'd prefer all-metal construction, and since we'll be buying used, any boat we buy will have been fully ocean tested. As long as it passes a thorough and complete survey (which it will, or we'll walk away), I don't think custom or semi-custom is a worry.

You're right, I probably will be astounded at the capabilities of an iPad or similar. It's on our tentative wish list. Latest and greatest isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lepke View Post
I'd stay away from plotter systems that require proprietary charts. USA charts are free to download. Maybe start with OpenCPN, a free to download, computer based charting system.

I use a laptop for portability, but have a main computer with a large monitor for overall navigation. The nice thing about a computer based system is you can work at home, plan your routes and later transfer them to the onboard system or carry your laptop.

Boat shows are pushy salespeople trying to sell you things you may not need. They'll sell you a lake boat for ocean use if they can. And the salespeople will load you up with bells and whistles you'll never use. Last week they might have been selling used cars.

Local electronics dealers are salespeople or technicians first, not experienced captains or navigators. Generally, I've found dealers that service commercial boats more reliable and knowledgeable than those that primarily service yachts.
I find it incredible that proprietary charts—and charts that can't be backed up at will & as necessary—aren't outlawed. People's lives are at stake! If national governments won't put a stop to this dangerous (but profitable) idiocy, I wish some international body like SOLAS would. You'd think it would be well within their power...but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as possible, we intend to avoid closed, proprietary systems. I've already downloaded Open CPN and played with it a bit, and several forum members have said nice things about Coastal Explorer. A laptop/desktop/iPad combination is probably in our future, all right.

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Originally Posted by Exctyengr View Post
After fighting with the vagaries of different software systems, I use a simple navionics on an iPad platform. It is simple, intuitive, portable. The only caution is that the system is power hungry at least compared with a simple iPad. So you need a way to recharge at the helm station.
PS: My son, who is a pilot and flies fires uses an iPad with ForeFlight software. It is easier than the high priced Garmin systems.
My 2 cents: Go with what is in there, learn the boat, meanwhile use an iPad with Navionics
Intuitive and portable is good! I'll definitely check it out, but as you say, the first thing to do is to go with what's in there and learn the boat.

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Originally Posted by Dean Russell View Post
The Garmin was $11,500 US dollars to install in the helicopter, ForeFlight on the iPad was 10x better, faster and had more information at 10% of the cost, but It was not certified
At least certification isn't a concern with pleasure craft nav systems, though it probably should be.

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Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Wifey B: We print our own paper charts if desired but never desire. Last time we did print some was on our cruise to Montreal and back and we printed them so our niece could mark on them, with assistance, where we'd been each day. She just did that at the end of the day to show kids in day care when she got back home. During the day though she loved to look at the plotter as it and radar fascinated her. She was 4 years old at the time. She's already boating crazy.
Ah, but I really enjoy looking at maps, charts, atlases etc. Besides, Canadian law requires paper charts for any area we'll be cruising in.

Fwiw, I spent most of my working years as a surveyor, which involves a great deal of poring over 'charts' (survey plans) that don't always agree, along with a great deal of angle and distance measurement, usually to tolerances of millimetres rather than fathoms...though never, I admit, from a moving platform. Guess I'll find out whether my survey background gives me a head start or not (gulp).
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:29 AM   #37
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Welcome to a life style. It's the best. One comment after reading the above. Have a talk, with Rosepoint. They are a electronic navigation company. The ideas and information keeps coming. See ya around.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:36 AM   #38
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Thanks, dboater, maybe our paths will cross some day...and Rose Point's Coastal Explorer is definitely on my list.

Hmm, I just spotted this recent post:

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Originally Posted by woodscrew View Post
I've been using Navionics on my Ipad since early October, from New Jersey to Palm Coast Florida down the waterway. Love it. Much better than My Garmins. It was flawless until I got a message stating that I would no longer receive updates unless I took the appropriate action, which I did on December 28th. (I assume this is related to Garmin buying Navionics). With that update and another one since, the auto route function no longer works properly. It will draw a curvy blue line sometimes, then will jump straight across land with a dotted red line. And many other glitches. This is Version 13.2. Anybody else have problems since the mandatory change?
Makes me think twice about Navionics. With the Garmin buyout, portability may be a thing of the past, if it isn't already.
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Old 01-29-2019, 10:55 AM   #39
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I agree with the often mentioned "use what came with the boat" for a while before you replace it.
I also agree with the need for a good auto-pilot


I had mid 2000 vintage Raymarine stuff--I kept it and it actually became my backup system
I primarily used Coastal Explorer on a laptop for navigation.


Also I would highly recommend you consider a Flotilla type trip for your first few weeks of your trip north. Here is one I really recommend--learn a lot:
Slowboat
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Old 01-29-2019, 11:21 AM   #40
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Turns out I live close to you and recently purchased a boat that has done most of your dream save the Galapagos and Europe. All nave was done with a laptop, rose point coastal explorer software, $300 and an integrated autopilot. As you’re already aware, no need to concern yourself with this yet but keep up the research.
Good to have a boat that you know can do the job! One boat we've been eyeballing—a semi-custom steel 56-footer—has crossed the Atlantic 4 times without problems, and survived a hard grounding with only minor damage. That's the kind of assurance no underwriter can provide.

[ edit/afterthought: I just did a double take on the name of your boat. Very clever.]

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I agree with the often mentioned "use what came with the boat" for a while before you replace it.
I also agree with the need for a good auto-pilot


I had mid 2000 vintage Raymarine stuff--I kept it and it actually became my backup system
I primarily used Coastal Explorer on a laptop for navigation.


Also I would highly recommend you consider a Flotilla type trip for your first few weeks of your trip north. Here is one I really recommend--learn a lot:
Slowboat
Most of the time it will be just me and my wife running the boat, so yes, an autopilot is an absolute necessity. And if there's no backup for the autopilot, we'll install one.

A flotilla cruise might not be a bad idea, at least while we're in our cruising infancy. We're already subscribed to the slowboat.com YouTube channel and have watched all their instructional videos at least once. I agree they're good. Been a while since they uploaded anything.
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