Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-01-2016, 12:18 AM   #21
Senior Member
 
GoldenDawn's Avatar
 
City: Brentwood Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Golden Dawn
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 116
"eyschulman"
This USCG APP is brilliant - thanks for the reference!
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
John Harper
Golden Dawn, KK42-82
GoldenDawn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:46 AM   #22
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
I have a "Fire Boy" Halon system in the ER that of course can no longer be serviced. Also 2 larger CO2 cylinders (helm station, and galley/engine room entrance and 3 small dry chemicals (2 staterooms and saloon) all serviced and certified every year. Since Bay Pelican (and you, John) mentioned it, I am considering a separate battery for the new VHF that also has internal GPS. We have the Delorme and a hand held VHF.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
On not being able to service your engine room halon system...you mean not refilled with halon? I believe it can still be utilized in several ways.

I got this as an email and it may help....

Canada:

"From January 1, 2010 refills on all halon fixed fire extinguishing systems is prohibited." (ref : Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment (CCME) May 2002 Environment Canada.)"

Note the term "refills" does not mean servicing which is the inspection of the system for weight of Halon, leak checking the piping, and proper operation of detection and release components. The system can be serviced by any number of approved fire extinguisher companies. If the manufacturer does not require a hydro test then there is no need to remove or recharge the Halon.

Regarding Fireboy systems, they follow and include the following USCG NVIC in their service instructions:

NVIC 3-95 permits visual cylinder examinations in lieu of periodic hydrostatic testing of steel storage
cylinders for fixed Halon 1301 systems, because industry research has shown the non-corrosive
characteristics of the chemical agent were not harmful to steel DOT cylinders.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwino-zswtbKAhXIlR4KHcqvBVEQFghEMAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffir ephttps://webmail.c.earthlink.net/wam/images/earthlink/icons/joinbottom.gifrotection.asttbc.org%2Fdocuments%2FF AQ-FHR2003-FireExtinguishingSystemsV08Jan06.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEt3 zzouTQwOBM8WXaa_QQ-YDDPQw

4.0 SERVICING
4.1
What are my requirements for servicing fire extinguishing systems?
If you are responsible for a fire extinguishing system, you must maintain it according to the manufacturer’s instructions.
When a person does any work on a fire extinguishing system (such as installing, servicing, leak testing or charging a halocarbon to the system),
the work must be performed in accordance with the Underwriters’ Laboratories of Canada publication ULC/ORD-C1058.18-1993, entitled
The Servicing of Halon Fire Extinguishing Systems

The servicing of a fixed fire extinguishing system is prohibited unless the owner is first notified
of the intended service, the system is shut down,and a notice is affixed to the control panel of the system to indicate
that it is out of operation during the service period."

As long as the manufacturer's instructions for service periods are followed, no recharging is done, and person doing the servicing tells the owner that his fixed system is there to protect the space and will be inoperative during the servicing process, it is not illegal to service the system.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 11:06 AM   #23
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,956
This is a little different concept that I haven't seen discussed on this thread.

With all this talk of engine room fires and automatic fire systems, how many people have a functional smoke alarm tied to a siren in their engine room.

The reason I ask is that my fire suppression system is automatic and is triggered by an ambient temperature of 175 degrees. Just thinking about it, unless the fire was right next to the bottle, it would have to be a good size fire to set the thing off.

I want to know about a problem long before my engine room is engulfed by fire. I want to know when something starts smoking. Then probably I would have time to deal with it before it becomes a full on abandon ship situation.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 11:30 AM   #24
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,889
I personally put out an engine room fire while offshore. 70' Italian motor yacht running 20kts offshore NC in Jan, about 20nm offshore. Had left engine room about 20min earlier and was on bridge with capt. Heard a little "stutter". Looked at gauges, looked ok. Decided to go to engine room. Little window on ER door was bright yellow. ER on fire. Ran up stairs and shouted at capt to shut down engines. Shouted at crew to round up fire ex's. Got a few at at door and cracked it open and sprayed the fire. Went through a few and got it under control. Mostly around a dry insulated turbo and some on overhead.

What happened was a gauge line on a gear fractured and shot 300psi oil right into a gap between a dry exhaust pipe and it's insulation. Aim was perfect. The stutter I felt was the clutches slipping, they then welded and that engine was stuck in fwd.

Fire damage was minimal. Once engine was shut down, flow stopped and fire had not caught any structure on fire.

The boat had a big halon bottle, but best we could tell the heat had not yet gotten to the sensors trip point.

We limped into port on one engine. We could use the damaged engine for docking as it was stuck in fwd, could not use rev. Had to start/stop as needed to get thrust. Had to replace clutch pack on the gear, but could do that in place. Had to fly a ZF tech in from Europe with all his tools.

What a mess. I was covered in oil, FX dust and sweat. The night before my GF broke up with me and I had zero sleep before boarding. And someone did a hit and run on the door of my car. And while wallowing around on way into port I started to get seasick, rare for me.

I guess that qualified as a "bad day".
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 12:19 PM   #25
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,612
Thanks for that info, PSNeeld. I will talk to the outfit that inspects my FE's to see if they can inspect the extinguisher.


Jim
Sent from my iPad using Trawler Forum
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 01:58 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
Generally speaking fire protection folks have found that smoke detection is too sensitive for diesel or gas engine rooms. Heat detection in the 180 to 190 degrees F is more suitable and reliable. if you need very early detection flame detectors are the way to go.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 02:07 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
In most States and Canadian provinces maintaining fire extinguishers is licensed work. The Montreal Protocol let you continue to use existing Halon but once it is gone it cannot be replaced with the old ozone eating varieties. The new stuff is called FM200. Unfortunately is is not a drop in and equipment needs to be changed.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 02:41 PM   #28
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
I have a Halon system for the engine room without the engine, blower, generator, etc. shutdown system. Was considering adding a new suppression system with the shut down system. Got to thinking about it, and the shut down system scares me. I understand the need............

Ted
The purpose there is an automatic shut down feature is not because it shuts down the engine and therefore combustion. Halon when heated can become combustible and can cause the engine(s) to runaway. THAT is the reason there is an automatic shutdown feature on automatic fire suppression systems that use Halon. An engine fire is bad enough. An engine fire AND runaway engine(s) would be downright frightening. Anyway, I do believe that insurance companies require an auto shutdown feature if Halon is used in an automatic fire suppression system.
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 02:52 PM   #29
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
The purpose there is an automatic shut down feature is not because it shuts down the engine and therefore combustion. Halon when heated can become combustible and can cause the engine(s) to runaway. THAT is the reason there is an automatic shutdown feature on automatic fire suppression systems that use Halon. An engine fire is bad enough. An engine fire AND runaway engine(s) would be downright frightening. Anyway, I do believe that insurance companies require an auto shutdown feature if Halon is used in an automatic fire suppression system.
When I was a kid, Halon systems were the rage. They were used for computer rooms too. The one thing I wondered then and wonder today with any automatic system was "will it really work." I like thing you can fully test and on fire you just can't do that. It's like sprinkler systems in buildings. You hope they'll work. I take comfort in the fact I've never known a system not to work.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 02:53 PM   #30
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
The reason for engine shutdown is to stop ventilation. Halon only works when confined. If the engines continue to run they ventilate the engine room and remove the halon.

Halon does not burn but will decompose with extreme heat and can give off phosgene a poisonous gas.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 03:35 PM   #31
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,633
Quote:
Originally Posted by obthomas View Post
The reason for engine shutdown is to stop ventilation. Halon only works when confined. If the engines continue to run they ventilate the engine room and remove the halon.

Halon does not burn but will decompose with extreme heat and can give off phosgene a poisonous gas.
I am not claiming what I said to be true. I just heard about it and am in the process of doing a little research. I do realize that Halon does not burn...which is why we use it as a means of fighting fires. But I was under the impression that the heat does break it down into a gas that diesel engines can use to maintain combustion. Again, just parroting what i have heard somewhere and am looking around on the internet for anything that supports it.

Now if we go with what you are saying, shouldn't the concentrated Halon itself cause the engines to stop?
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 03:59 PM   #32
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,889
If given a full mouthful of halon, I think the engine would stop running. The problem is the halon is being admitted at a rate where say the engine gets half air, half halon, and continues to run, probably poorly. So the engine is pumping halon out as fast as it is being admitted.

I'm not sure exactly how the halon works, whether it quenches the fire or merely displaces O2. Gots me some reading to do...
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 04:06 PM   #33
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
The original Halon was cool stuff...a friend of mine in the early 80s went to a distributer to investigate its use for USCG aviation.


In the office, the guy behind the desk said "hey, have a smoke". My friend went to light up and the guys desk was covered with a 100 lighters. After trying a few, my friend Frank was like WTF? The guy offered Frank some matches...same result...none would work.


The guy leaned back and pulled open a sliding door and pointed to a large bottle of Halon mounted to the wall. He said that it was trickling Halon into the room at a rate just low enough to prevent combustion.


I can't verify the story...but if true...pretty cool.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 04:15 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
It could be true. Halon works for most combustion at about 7% by volume. There is still enough oxygen to support life but the halon is in a concentration that interferes with the combustion process. These characteristic are why a diesel engine could continue to run and pump the halon out of the boat. It is necessary to shut down all ventilation for halon or the newer FM200 to work properly.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 04:23 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
obthomas's Avatar
 
City: Seabrook Texas
Country: USA
Vessel Name: TheVenture
Vessel Model: 1985 Bestway Labelle Sundeck 40ft
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 462
Halon might stop the engine if it were idling. At higher RPMs the halon just slows the engine down until its gone then the engine speeds up again.
obthomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:07 PM   #36
Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,291
lost your power and no portable VHF? The answer The CG is now encouraging the use of cell phones as a back up marine communication. Google CG mobile APP and get your free down load some cool buttons with all sorts of marine information and services including a emergency button that connects to the nearest CG station. Why a guest or wify who is not happy with VHF can easily use it and it works in the dinghy. You can use the float plan function or the safety equipment button or rules of the road -state rules Noaa buoys -report hazards or pollution or request a safety check and lots more and its free.
eyschulman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:48 PM   #37
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
lost your power and no portable VHF? The answer The CG is now encouraging the use of cell phones as a back up marine communication. Google CG mobile APP and get your free down load some cool buttons with all sorts of marine information and services including a emergency button that connects to the nearest CG station. Why a guest or wify who is not happy with VHF can easily use it and it works in the dinghy. You can use the float plan function or the safety equipment button or rules of the road -state rules Noaa buoys -report hazards or pollution or request a safety check and lots more and its free.
If you are in cell phone range.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:53 PM   #38
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,802
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Like improper sizing, poor maintenance, discharged and never replaced...etc


Come on I know you are just busting my chops...any experienced boat owner knows why systems fail to perform...maybe that's the main reason why the 2 companies I dealt with said no discount for auto fire suppression for a diesel boat.


I have been thinking of installing a system...expecting the insurance company to give a discount but the answer was no...based on my experience...it's 50/50 whether they are really worth it.


Based on BoatUS data...they are pretty far down the list to worry about.


Also from my experience..if you HAVE a system aboard both the surveyors and insurance companies expect it to be fully operational...because the owner is supposedly counting on it...so yes they will make sure that it is up to compliance.


No system...no deficiency tags...
I see, so a crap boat leads to a burnt boat. Let's throw in no maintenance or testing of bilge pumps while we are at it. Now about those handhelds you are sending some human being into an ER with, how are they doing, maintenance wise? I'm busting your chops because you are seriously FOS here, and making excuses for people to rationalize having an unsafe boat. Playing fast and loose with impressionable newbies lives now, are we?
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:53 PM   #39
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
The biggest advantage to a cel phone call over a radio call can be you are talking right to an operations specialist instead of a radio operator.


Not always that big of a deal, but I have seen where it does have its advantages.


But a radio does allow other boats nearby to respond.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2016, 07:59 PM   #40
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,920
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
I see, so a crap boat leads to a burnt boat. Let's throw in no maintenance or testing of bilge pumps while we are at it. Now about those handhelds you are sending some human being into an ER with, how are they doing, maintenance wise? I'm busting your chops because you are seriously FOS here, and making excuses for people to rationalize having an unsafe boat. Playing fast and loose with impressionable newbies lives now, are we?
FOS...maybe..but at the low end of the spectrum around here.

Not rationalizing anything more than what insurance types seem to imply to me...they insure on what are the expected risks are from the general population..not the top end like a few here like to boast they are.


My point wasn't anything more than why several insurance companies I have dealt with and others have indicated why there might not be any or much of a discount in having an installed auto fire system. Not a judgment issue...just why something might or might not be considered.


They know the average boat maintenance is less than stellar.
__________________

psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012