Electronic suite replacement

[No Mast]

First a brief bit of background:

We purchased Moana knowing she had been barely used in a number of years and would need some help along the way out of the "slumber". We've split the work up into 3 winters. This year we are working through issues like reglazing windows, a steering system leak, windlass that won't pull the weight of the anchor, etc... nothing terrible, but basically the important things. Next year we are addressing some cosmetic and non-critical matters. The third winter we are devoting to electronics.

We deferred the electronics to the third year for two reasons. Cost is one. Secondly, we wanted to understand the systems onboard well before we went around willy nilly picking out new electronics. We currently have a Furuno radar and a Simrad plotter btw. The system is a tad slow in responding nor can we interface AIS into it. A new system for us would also incorporate side scan sonar and FLIR. With the issues of interfacing NMEA products from different manufacturers, I'm originally leaning towards selecting one brand and trying to stick with it as much as possible (not that it'll guarantee sucess, ask Twistedtree)

I was recently at a boat show and was impressed with the Garmin line. I'm used to working with them from the aviation side, but not the marine side. Also I realize that the performance I see at a show won't necessarily transpose evenly into a real world scenario.

So I have two main questions.
1. If you were redoing your electronics and getting everything you wanted, what would you do?
2. Any users of latest generation systems from the main manufacturers, how would you recommend or critique the systems?

 

[N4712]

For your kinda boat here's what (I) would do.

So for below helms figure you have two monitors.
Pilot house
First monitor- A TZT black box
Second Monitor- A nav pc running your personal choice of a nav program (I'd go maxsea so you can repeat all the furuno data)
Flybridge
- TZT 14
Peripherals

-DRS6A
-PSU012
-DFF1
-Vesper Marine XB8000
-Maretron WSO-100
-Maretron GPS-200
- How ever many Maretron DSM-150 displays you want.
-Nmea 2000 backbone

Of course tha'ts a rough list you need all the little connectors and bit to connect it all up.

You have a working autopilot and heading sensor right?

 

[N4712]

I have a Furuno TZTBB system with radar and like it so far.

I personally recommended Furuno over garmin as the furuno unit is just plain out a better built quality unit.

 

[No Mast]

4712: yes we have a simrad autopilot

 

[N4712]

Alright, so then you'd need a N2k to 0183 for bi-directional data for your equipment too.

Going to see if can find some pictures of my install i did a little while ago.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

I personally recommended Furuno over garmin as the furuno unit is just plain out a better built quality unit.

Can you prove that?

 

[Capt.Bill11]

"A new system for us would also incorporate side scan sonar"

Way do you want side scan, fishing?

 

[N4712]

Can you prove that?

Yes, come on down and I'll be happy to show you. The Furuno is way more rugged.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Yes, come on down and I'll be happy to show you. The Furuno is way more rugged.

Are you going to hit it with a hammer?

Seriously, how can you tell?

 

[bligh]

I have a Furuno TZTBB system with radar and like it so far.

I personally recommended Furuno over garmin as the furuno unit is just plain out a better built quality unit.

We just installed a complete garmin suite of electronics. It is all very well built from what I can see. It all performs well without any lag. No complaints here. Specifically, we installed radar, sounder, 2 gps map head units, heading sensor, and anemometer/wind direction indicator. Although not installed yet, we also have the autopilot unit from garmin as well. We also used a standard horizon vhf with ais which connected to the garmin gpsmap displays without issue.

 

[N4712]

Are you going to hit it with a hammer?



Seriously, how can you tell?

The Garmin is 95% plastic, where furuno is 95% metal. Furuno software wise is ten times more in depth then garmin's super simple stupid approach which isn't a Bad thing when in center console boats. Down to cables, a Furuno power cable has 3 layers of shielding where Garmin has tin foil.

 

[N4712]

We just installed a complete garmin suite of electronics. It is all very well built from what I can see. It all performs well without any lag. No complaints here. Specifically, we installed radar, sounder, 2 gps map head units, heading sensor, and anemometer/wind direction indicator. Although not installed yet, we also have the autopilot unit from garmin as well. We also used a standard horizon vhf with ais which connected to the garmin gpsmap displays without issue.

I have no problems with Garmin, I have two on my boat and love them. They work perfect for what I put them in for. But when compared to Furuno there is no competition, you can instantly tell the quality difference and how more thought out they are (software wise).

 

[No Mast]

"A new system for us would also incorporate side scan sonar"

Way do you want side scan, fishing?

more for comfort in shallow areas.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

But none of that necessarily translates into one being more long lasting or trouble free than the other. Don't get me wrong, I like Furunos stuff. But if both systems perform trouble free for years, which I've seen both do, what a unit is made of and how heavy it is could be meaningless in predicting its longevity.

It's not like this stuff is getting hit by hammers, EMPs or getting left out in the rain day after day. The TZTBB is after all a black box that gets mounted in a dry secure location. And added shielding may be nice to have but if it's unnecessary it just adds to the cost.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

more for comfort in shallow areas.

It will be interesting to see how well it works in shallow water. We are putting it on the boat I'm currently running even now. I'm not sure what use it will be when the bottom is close to the keel.

 

[N4712]

But none of that necessarily translates into one being more long lasting or trouble free than the other. Don't get me wrong, I like Furunos stuff. But if both systems perform trouble free for years, which I've seen both do, what a unit is made of and how heavy it is could be meaningless in predicting its longevity.



It's not like this stuff is getting hit by hammers, EMPs or getting left out in the rain day after day. The TZTBB is after all a black box that gets mounted in a dry secure location. And added shielding may be nice to have but if it's unnecessary it just adds to the cost.

Bigger heat sinks and more heat chances for heat dissipation doesn't affect longevity?

Take a look at a TZT14 and BB they are identical on the back end. Furuno just added a display, and roto key. The TZT9 is a mini TZTBB/14.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Bigger heat sinks and more heat chances for heat dissipation doesn't affect longevity?
.

Only if it's needed for that particular unit. Just because the Furuno units have or need bigger heat sinks doesn't mean the Garmin units could use bigger ones. They mostly likely have no need for them. Nor, taken on face value, does one unit having bigger heat sinks than the other help in predicting either units longevity.

 

[bligh]

I too looked at all the equipment. Maybe I am a simpleton or my salesman sucked, but the garmin units seem to do everything i would need and probably more.
I didnt see any advantage of metal over plastic. The garmin plastic housings seemed quite rugged although i admit i didn't try running them over with my truck in the parking lot.
Furthermore, all the equipment you can buy today (like most electronics) will likely be worthless long before it stops working. In fact, the existing units i removed from my boat were 2 working 10 inch gps units (plastic garmins) that were installed in 2003 or so.
I will also add that, IIRC, I saved quite a few boat bucks by buying garmin over furuno.

 

[N4712]

I too looked at all the equipment. Maybe I am a simpleton or my salesman sucked, but the garmin units seem to do everything i would need and probably more.
I didnt see any advantage of metal over plastic. The garmin plastic housings seemed quite rugged although i admit i didn't try running them over with my truck in the parking lot.
Furthermore, all the equipment you can buy today (like most electronics) will likely be worthless long before it stops working. In fact, the existing units i removed from my boat were 2 working 10 inch gps units (plastic garmins) that were installed in 2003 or so.
I will also add that, IIRC, I saved quite a few boat bucks by buying garmin over furuno.

The Garmin's are great to an extent, I've found Garmin to be very proprietary in some of their things like autopilots. You're forced to Ouse their heading sensor and pump. Also if you have multiple heading sensors you don't have the ability to choose which one you want, source selection and stuff like that is what bugs me about them. Also their proprietary charts, I love them for my area as they are based off very reputable charts (bahamas- explorer charts) ,but once we start cruising around in far destinations Garmin doesn't have charts for these places. So now what? Oh go get one that does.

I've also noted Garmin hardware getting kind of chinsey like the the type of connectors they have started using, and also it seems every time I pull the dust cover off my machines the bezel wants to come off with it. Little stuff like that bothers me too.

Of course you saved a lot because you were in Garmins target market.

 

[ksanders]

I don't have anything against the Garmin stuff but I've had really good success out of my Furuno Navnet Vx2 gear.

And, Yes it will interface with a simard autopilot, and with whatever brand of AIS you want, etc...

 

[timjet]

I love my little Garman entry level 740. It got us from Tampa to Key West to Annapolis.
No sonar, but we did bump once though.

I just got a letter from ActiveCaptain. Furuno is introducing software for their units that will layer ActiveCapt data on their plotters. That could be a tipping point for me if I were on the fence.

 

[twistedtree]

No Mast, just out of curiosity, what models furuno chart plotter and radar do you currently have, and what model Simrad auto pilot?

 

[sunchaser]

To the OP:

1. Are you installing a computer based plotting system? Neither Garmin or Furuno chart plotters are user friendly in comparison to Trident, Rose Point or a few others out there.

2. Do you have a NMEA 2000 backbone installed?

3. What data do you want on what screen? This would include data from AIS, sounder, weather, cameras, Radar, plotter etc.

4. Will you eventually replace your AP, with whose?

If not done already the recent threads by TwistedTree may prove helpful.

 

[psneeld]

Metal or plastic, Furuno or Raymarine, marine or laptop.....

All it takes is one poorly engineered or produced solder joint and you are staring at an expensive box with the navigation capability of a cinder block.

Seems like all the big boys...and remember Garmin is the new kid on the block in some ways....have a line go bad or be not user friendly, etc.

Recently the giant Simrad seems to have fallen from favor for a variety of reasons.

I agree that for interior pilothouses, glass cockpits time has come. The number one issue is laying out the available data in such a way you can receive it so that on the dark and foggy you aren't overwhelmed yet get enough you won't ignore a serious navigation or onboard systems issue.

On the other hand, I have had my full of flying on instruments and only have enough instruments to let me continue for a bit in fog or dark safely. I am a fair weather cruiser so my suit costs less than most Glass screens, yet I feel safe enough to travel 3000 miles a year. My boat isn't n attack sub...so the inexpensive basics are plenty.

Most boat owners can't use the simple stuff to their extent and just like the look or capabilities of the system but can't boat enough to really learn and practice with the gear...heck most commercial guys don't.

It would be nice to crystal ball into the future to see who is at least headed in the right direction...but all we can do is set up systems that allow flexibility to expand and change out components that allow the best flexibility.

I was still in the marine electronics business when networking was starting to mature...even then I mostly recommended something from each of the manufacturers had strong points for each of the different components. Though not in to my elbows anymore, I think I still would build custom setups rather than mega packages based on reviews, not marketing.

 

[Jeffrey S]

There are so many factors at play in the decision to re-up the electronics in a trawler. There's just no way a single sentence can describe all the issues and it's really unfair to say that one manufacturer's product line is XYZ compared to another (more reliable, more rugged, more anything).

I went through this entire exercise a couple of years ago and I help others go through it about every week. I think the best helm is a combination of off-the-shelf MFD chartplotter products and generic computer products (Windows, iPads, etc). That combination, I believe, gives the best in redundancy and capability for every environment you'll face in a trawler.

Never compromise ease-of-use. It's not good enough if you're the only one on the boat capable of operating the electronics systems. There was just an incident on the Chesapeake 18 months ago where the skipper was incapacitated and his wife was unable to disengage the autopilot. It took a very dangerous situation and added additional layers of complication that could have cost both people their lives.

The way I started my exploration was to come up with a set of tasks that I felt were important (adjusting a route while underway, turning on and off radar, verifying GPS operation, etc). I wrote those tasks down and handed them to my wife. She has never read a manual and isn't the type who will start doing it now but she understood the need to be able to use the systems. We went to the Annapolis Boat Show where all 4 major vendors had booths. She ran through that list, unassisted, on each of the major chartplotter/instrument systems. We narrowed the list down to 2 vendors from her hit/miss findings. But in discussing it all, she said that she just liked one set of products more than the other. That's what kicked off the purchase.

Every one of these vendors have great products. Some have better service than others although that's changing because you can't get away with crummy customer service today.

One experience thing that I learned too after having a trawler that draws 6 feet with our ICW-twice-a-year travels:

Side scan sonar might be of value - I don't really know. But what I know works exceptionally well is having two transducers as far apart as possible with the numeric display of depth showing simultaneously from each side. After 12 years of using this setup (changing it out for better transducers as part of our recent upgrade), I know that this provides incredible value when looking for the actual channel location. Seeing a difference of 0.3 feet between the sensors is enough to give real information. Veering off to the side of a channel immediately shows where the deeper water is and the couple of times I've grounded to a stop in the middle of the channel, it has given me the information to know which way to wiggle off (which worked both times unassisted). Having multiple depth transducers might produce some special installation issues/displays because although NMEA2K supports multiple transducers, some MFD/instrument displays don't expect it and show only one.

 

[chester613]

I have Garmin everything, including the auto pilot. I works great. They all talk to each other and I have zero issues.

 

[No Mast]

Twisted tree:
Currently installed:
chart plotter is a Simrad DS 54
Autopilot controller Simrad AP 25
I don't recall the radar model installed. But it is a Furuno original to the boat.

4712: I was unaware of the shortcoming in the garmin coverage area. That could be a strike against Garmin. Need to look at that closer.

Jeffrey: Yes our draw is equivalent to yours and we have a depth transducer on each side. I agree that it is useful in the ICW. Our idea with the side scan is to have more info instead of a pinpoint depth at one spot on either side under the boat. Your idea on how to put the admiral in front of the systems is a great one! and one I'll duplicate in the future as we continue to look at this.

psneeld: We use a laptop running nobletec as a backup, ok we use it more of a primary actually, but I have cold feet about making the main systems PC based. Probably I don't know enough about doing so, and am concerned when i have an issue two vendors are going to point their fingers at microsoft, and they.... Or that some automatic update will create a problem when I turn it all on.

 

[twistedtree]

I think Jeff is on the right track here. Focus on what you want to be able to do, make a clear list, then look at products and techniques to accomplish what you want. Then, from the brands that meet your needs, go check out their reputation, customer service, and look for customer feedback. If I've learned anything about marine electronics, it's that there is too much too them to fully evaluate before purchase. You won't know what you really have until it's too late. So talking to others who have gone before you is critical.

I would recommend against just buying into a brand. Doing so is a hollow decision. I bought based on brand on my Grand Banks (Furuno) and ended up disappointed with the NN3D products.

On my nordy I bought based on an pretty extensive evaluation and ended up with Simrad. Owner feedback suggested poor customer support. That ended up being true many times over. And I discovered loads of problems with the Simrad products and ultimately removed them all. That's an example of "you don't know what you have until it's too late".

Now the third time I'm again picking based on product comparisons and features, but also with an ever accumulating knowledge base which helps a lot. I'm ending up back with Furuno, but because of specific product capabilities, not because of Brand. And also because of demonstrated excellent customer support. Will there be new unforeseen problems? Yes, I'm sure there will be. I just hope they aren't as fatal as the Simrad issues were.

 

[twistedtree]

psneeld: We use a laptop running nobletec as a backup, ok we use it more of a primary actually, but I have cold feet about making the main systems PC based. Probably I don't know enough about doing so, and am concerned when i have an issue two vendors are going to point their fingers at microsoft, and they.... Or that some automatic update will create a problem when I turn it all on.

I'm usually at the head of the line when there is PC/Windows bashing to be done. But a few years ago I started using Coastal Explorer as my primary navigation tool. It was one of the most liberating moves I made. I think it's superior in every way to any of the chart plotters. Plus, it relegates the chart plotter to being a display for your sounder and radar. Or, if your sounder and radar are already separate, it relegates the chart plotter to the junk heap.

In my current refit, I've taken that last step and my boat does not have any chart plotter or MFD or black box equivalent. I got no use for it. It is again liberating because I have now focused on picking the best fishfinder for my needs, regardless of brand and regardless of proprietary integration with other products. Note that things still link together over N2K and 0183 to share data, but none of it is proprietary. And I have been able to pick radar products that are the best fit for my needs, again regardless of brand or proprietary integration.

As for reliability, Coastal Explorer running on Windows 7 under VMWare Fusion on a Mac Mini has by far been the most trouble free piece of gear in my electronics suite on both the Grand Banks and the Nordhavn. The key, I believe, is to get it working and then lock it down. I think this is most important on the windows OS front. I have all forms of auto update, firewalls, virus protection, etc turned off. Coastal Explorer updates only when I tell it to. And the Mac updates only when I tell it to. The other key is to not run much of anything else on that computer. Dedicate it to navigation and Coastal Explorer or which ever program you pick. The only other thing I have on that machine are a few service utilities for N2K, and they only get run when specifically needed. There is no email, no web browsing and no other Microsoft virusware. It can take the better part of a day to strip a Windows installation of all the pre-installed crap, but it's well worth it. This setup gets powered up when I get on the boat, and then runs non-stop for 1-6 months without ever skipping a beat.

 

[sunchaser]

I have Garmin everything, including the auto pilot. I works great. They all talk to each other and I have zero issues.

Do you have a computer based plotting system?