Electrical issues, ground/neutrals and bonding

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Since you asked for opinions I will give you mine. I would not bother with bonding the boat.

There are highly experienced people at ABYC that believe that bonding does reduce galvanic corrosion however the driving factor is safety. ABYC will always lean towards crew safety when there is a choice to be made. In their courses they teach that bonding offers a secondary safety ground in case of AC infiltrating the DC system (many ways this can happen). Remember that Beneteau are the people that make boats with brass ball valves instead of seacocks so I'm not sure they have a good grasp of galvanic corrosion (or maybe they just cheap out).
 
Last edited:
Remember that Beneteau are the people that make boats with brass ball valves instead of seacocks so I'm not sure they have a good grasp of galvanic corrosion (or maybe they just cheap out).


Exactly! You beat me to it!
 
Like religion

There are highly experienced people at ABYC that believe that bonding does reduce galvanic corrosion however the driving factor is safety. ABYC will always lean towards crew safety when there is a choice to be made. In their courses they teach that bonding offers a secondary safety ground in case of AC infiltrating the DC system (many ways this can happen). Remember that Beneteau are the people that make boats with brass ball valves instead of seacocks so I'm not sure they have a good grasp of galvanic corrosion (or maybe they just cheap out).

I don’t doubt that many at ABYC think bonding is important. But to my knowledge it is still not required by anyone.

I would love to see some objective evidence that Beneteau and other non-bonding manufacturers are putting boats and owners at risk. I have no affiliation with Beneteau, but I would think before we go off investing thousands of dollars we have no BS objective data. I wonder if insurance companies keep it? IF so, one would think that B’s might be more expensive to insure.

Does anyone know?

Has anyone had there Beneteau gigged By a surveyor because it was not bonded? Did the insurance company require the adjustment.

Just say’n...
 
#44 Diver Dave
You are making an apples and oranges comparison. The cited article states up front that the GI does not meet the current ABYC Standards. It is neither fail-safe nor is the safety ground monitored and the capacitor required by ABYC A-28 is not installed in this version.
Galvanic isolators using diodes shall use a non-polarized capacitor(s), or equivalent method of meeting the requirements of A-28.13.5
 
#44 Diver Dave
You are making an apples and oranges comparison. The cited article states up front that the GI does not meet the current ABYC Standards. It is neither fail-safe nor is the safety ground monitored and the capacitor required by ABYC A-28 is not installed in this version.

OK, I'm with you on that. Overall, performance and safety specs should not dictate HOW to do a job. I work with a lot of specs , including UL, CSA, CE, and so on. ABYC has jumped into some minutia with "non-pol caps, etc". I read in detail the qualification tests required, and they are well written. There was nothing though, to cause a "fail safe" condition. Like, if you did take a lightning hit, the GI failed, just what fail safe means. I would suppose, it would fail in a shorted condition and the fault indicator should still light up. But, I didn't read that...
 
From A-28
 

Attachments

  • GI.jpg
    GI.jpg
    29.7 KB · Views: 56
as long as the failure is "shorted diode(s)". A significant surge, though, could result in "open diodes". Since no test was called to force the test unit to failure, one could only say "a SINGLE diode failure still results in a safe unit".
 
#66
Diver Dave-"Fail safe" means, as you supposed, that if the components fail, the redundant, low impedance return to the source, aka "safety ground", will not be compromised.

The fails safe qualified GIs do not require any sensing or monitoring circuit. The instructions do provide the test procedure to be performed at least annually and whenever a surge or lightning strike is suspected to ensure that the GI is still providing galvanic protection.

Fail Safe GIs came about after the monitored GIs were deployed that provided an audible and visual alarm that could not be turned off when the loss of safety ground was detected. Since marinas have notoriously bad electrical systems (although improving as we speak), the GI was essentially testing the marinas' electrical systems , the systems were failing and the boat owner could not silence the alarm!!! Not an ideal condition.

Enter, after much blood, sweat and tears, ABYC A-28 and Fail Safe.
 
Last edited:
Great feedback, Charlie. Sounds like you have been very close to the situation.
 
Great feedback, Charlie. Sounds like you have been very close to the situation.

I personally consider Charlie one of the Guru's in this industry, and yes he does have his finger on the pulse.....;)
 
OP here to update. Had another electrician on the boat to survey. Nothing wrong with my bonding system, all readings were fine. A couple of connections could maybe use some cleaning and one jumper wire on a through hull is corroded but easy fix. The copper ribbon is in good shape and he sees no reason to replace anything.

He did see the need for a galvanic isolator. Getting galvanic stray current. Significant difference in the testing of through hulls between plugged in to shore power and unplugged. I believe plugged in he was getting around -.580+- and unplugged at -.865+-. He also found one ground/neutral issue which he solved. He said that he thinks there is another(s) but will have to dig to find it. Anyway, they are coming back this coming Tuesday to install the GI and search out my ground/neutrals. Going to also install GFCI's in the three circuits I have onboard as there are none. I mentioned in another thread that he said when he was done he thinks I should go with smaller zincs.

hopefully all the above make sense as I am still pretty lost in this area. Glad to save $8,000 on the install of a new bonding system! Seems like the cost for the GI and other work will be less than that quoted from the other guy just to sort out the ground/neutrals.
 
Last edited:
OP here to update. Had another electrician on the boat to survey. Nothing wrong with my bonding system, all readings were fine. A couple of connections could maybe use some cleaning and one jumper wire on a through hull is corroded but easy fix. The copper ribbon is in good shape and he sees no reason to replace anything.

He did see the need for a galvanic isolator. Getting galvanic stray current. Significant difference in the testing of through hulls between plugged in to shore power and unplugged. I believe plugged in he was getting around -.580+- and unplugged at -.865+-. He also found one ground/neutral issue which he solved. He said that he thinks there is another(s) but will have to dig to find it. Anyway, they are coming back this coming Tuesday to install the GI and search out my ground/neutrals. Going to also install GFCI's in the three circuits I have onboard as there are none. I mentioned in another thread that he said when he was done he thinks I should go with smaller zincs.

hopefully all the above make sense as I am still pretty lost in this area. Glad to save $8,000 on the install of a new bonding system! Seems like the cost for the GI and other work will be less than that quoted from the other guy just to sort out the ground/neutrals.
Sometimes it is good to get a second opinion when the bill is $$$$.
Happy that things went good for you.

L
 
For a fiberglass boat with inboards you should be reading -750mv to -1000mv. Less than that you are under protected. Are you in brackish water? If you are, you can change from zincs to aluminum anodes and that should get you a little more negative.

Edit: I checked ABYC recommendations. They say you are ok at -550 my. There are a lot of references out there.

Recommended range of cathodic
protection for boats of different hull
materials in saltwater
Hull Material Millivolt Range
Fiberglass -550 to -1100
Wood -550 to -600
Aluminum -950 to -1100
Steel -850 to -1100
 
Last edited:
....... "Anyway, he quoted me $3K on the separating neutrals and grounds and $8K on redoing the bonding system " ........

3 K is outrageous ..... and 8 K is utterly ridiculous !! I don't care how anal this guy is and if you give him either one of these, I hope he's wearing a condom ............

FB
 
FB
After all is said and done and the changes made, one of the key criteria is that when you plug into one the new stray current code engineered docks you don't trip the 30ma pedestal breaker.
 
....... "Anyway, he quoted me $3K on the separating neutrals and grounds and $8K on redoing the bonding system " ........

3 K is outrageous ..... and 8 K is utterly ridiculous !! I don't care how anal this guy is and if you give him either one of these, I hope he's wearing a condom ............

FB

Yep and that is why I thanked him and called another company out to see what there take on it was. Much less anal, spent more time explaining, even gave me the 8AWG so I could fix the jumper on the through hull myself. I did fall off the turnip truck but it wasn't yesterday.
 
FB
After all is said and done and the changes made, one of the key criteria is that when you plug into one the new stray current code engineered docks you don't trip the 30ma pedestal breaker.

Yes, I have learned about the new docks and the breakers. I would think that this is something that can be tested prior to having an issue. I still think I have an issue with my shore power cord. 1st guy tested it somehow and said that it is shorting out I guess? Put a MM to it and showed me current returning through....the ground maybe? Something like that. Said I needed a new cord. Forgot to ask the second guy. How do you test a shore power cord for integrity?
 
Also, the guy I am dealing with now offered to show me how to install the isolator which I know is simple, one green wire. I turned him down though. Rather have someone else do the electrical until I feel more comfortable. He did explain the need for a Fail Safe isolator which I think was discussed in this thread. Maybe another one.
 
Yes, I have learned about the new docks and the breakers. I would think that this is something that can be tested prior to having an issue. I still think I have an issue with my shore power cord. 1st guy tested it somehow and said that it is shorting out I guess? Put a MM to it and showed me current returning through....the ground maybe? Something like that. Said I needed a new cord. Forgot to ask the second guy. How do you test a shore power cord for integrity?

This you can definitely do yourself if you have a multimeter. If you don't, get a cheap one online and play with it a bit. Watch a few online videos. You don't need to become an expert on this stuff, but it feels good to at least be able to find out when a wire is energized or not, whether something is shorted to ground, etc.

Set the meter on the OHMS setting...this is a continuity test, or a test to determine if one wire is connected to another. Touch the two test probes together and see how the reading goes to zero...this means zero resistance in the circuit...total continuity between one probe and another.

So you coil up the cable, both ends unplugged. Insert one probe (doesn't matter which) into one of the connections, making sure that it's in contact with the metal inside. Do the same with the other probe in each of the other connections AT THE SAME END of the cable. The resistance should be infinity, i.e., there should be no continuity between any two of the wires in your cable. Repeat this so that you check all the combinations of conductors in your cable (whether 3 or 4). If at any time the reading between two of the connections goes to zero, as it does when you touch the probes together, that means a "dead short" exists between those two wires in your cable.

Much more likely, however, would be some partial electrical leakage between two wires, in other words, some resistance value other than infinity and zero. Oftentimes it takes some flexing of the cable to reveal this.

Then check continuity along each wire within the cable by inserting the probe into the same wire's connector at both ends of the cable; the resistance should be zero.

If this were my boat, I'd focus on the items that the second outfit identified and go from there. Unless your shore power cable is quite old and worn out, it's the least-likely source of any problems. Please note that I am NOT an electrician.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us!
 
Last edited:
The recommended continuity test is ok, and certainly better than nothing, but it will just show that there are no wires adrift in the cable ends that are touching.

The best way to test your shore power cord and the internal connections at the connectors is with a megohmmeter (aka; megger). A good electrical shop/technician will have one. This device places a selectable high voltage on one conductor and checks the resistance reading on the parallel conductor. The shore power cords are rated at 600V so I test them using the 500V setting on my megger. As insulation ages, it looses its insulating properties until, under high voltage, the insulation will break down and there will be a short circuit between the conductors. A reading > 1 Mohm is acceptable.
 
The recommended continuity test is ok, and certainly better than nothing, but it will just show that there are no wires adrift in the cable ends that are touching.

The best way to test your shore power cord and the internal connections at the connectors is with a megohmmeter (aka; megger). A good electrical shop/technician will have one. This device places a selectable high voltage on one conductor and checks the resistance reading on the parallel conductor. The shore power cords are rated at 600V so I test them using the 500V setting on my megger. As insulation ages, it looses its insulating properties until, under high voltage, the insulation will break down and there will be a short circuit between the conductors. A reading > 1 Mohm is acceptable.

I just bought one of these, got it in today.:)

fluke_1503_megohmmeter.jpg


It measures to a few GigOhms at 1000 Volts.
 
This you can definitely do yourself if you have a multimeter. If you don't, get a cheap one online and play with it a bit. Watch a few online videos. You don't need to become an expert on this stuff, but it feels good to at least be able to find out when a wire is energized or not, whether something is shorted to ground, etc.

Set the meter on the OHMS setting...this is a continuity test, or a test to determine if one wire is connected to another. Touch the two test probes together and see how the reading goes to zero...this means zero resistance in the circuit...total continuity between one probe and another.

So you coil up the cable, both ends unplugged. Insert one probe (doesn't matter which) into one of the connections, making sure that it's in contact with the metal inside. Do the same with the other probe in each of the other connections AT THE SAME END of the cable. The resistance should be infinity, i.e., there should be no continuity between any two of the wires in your cable. Repeat this so that you check all the combinations of conductors in your cable (whether 3 or 4). If at any time the reading between two of the connections goes to zero, as it does when you touch the probes together, that means a "dead short" exists between those two wires in your cable.

Much more likely, however, would be some partial electrical leakage between two wires, in other words, some resistance value other than infinity and zero. Oftentimes it takes some flexing of the cable to reveal this.

Then check continuity along each wire within the cable by inserting the probe into the same wire's connector at both ends of the cable; the resistance should be zero.

If this were my boat, I'd focus on the items that the second outfit identified and go from there. Unless your shore power cable is quite old and worn out, it's the least-likely source of any problems. Please note that I am NOT an electrician.

Thanks for sharing your experience with us!


Thanks for the instructions. The cable was sort of a side issue, tested because he happened to think about it while we were standing there. Was a simple test, what you described so I can do it again. Definitely not the top of the list of fixes but too easy to ignore. Not dying to buy a new 50' 50amp cable I can tell you that. Ouch. Actually have 2 of them to reach my bow. Double ouch. But....they both have some definite age. Did smell the connections but couldn't detect any burn smell and there is no blackening anywhere. Have a digital multimeter will check it tomorrow while they are installing my brand spanking new Fail Safe Galvanic Isolator. I have my wife convinced that the boat will ride much smoother with it installed. She almost believes me.
 
The recommended continuity test is ok, and certainly better than nothing, but it will just show that there are no wires adrift in the cable ends that are touching.

The best way to test your shore power cord and the internal connections at the connectors is with a megohmmeter (aka; megger). A good electrical shop/technician will have one. This device places a selectable high voltage on one conductor and checks the resistance reading on the parallel conductor. The shore power cords are rated at 600V so I test them using the 500V setting on my megger. As insulation ages, it looses its insulating properties until, under high voltage, the insulation will break down and there will be a short circuit between the conductors. A reading > 1 Mohm is acceptable.

Thanks Charlie. A piece of equipment I have no business buying and have no idea how to use (I have a duffle bag full)!!! :) Not being very well versed in marine electricity it seems the megger would have very limited use for me but it does sound much simpler than some of the other equipment I have. As I mentioned I have the install of the isolator today so I will ask the electrician if he has one and can test. If not I can start with the MM I have and go from there.
 
Visually inspect the cable foot-by-foot over its entire length.
Do a test as described in Sabre's post with a simple DVM on each cable. Set the ohm scale on the highest scale. Write down the result of each point to point check.
The good news is either a fault in a cable will usually be an obvious chink or lump in the insulation or corrosion at the cable connectors. Connectors can be replaced to save the rest of the cable.
The bad news is if at some point in its life if the cable end was dropped into the water, the water will wick up the copper strands over time. While not absolutely terminal, you may have to cut off several feet of end to get to clean copper again.
 
Thanks. And I do know that one end of one cable was dipped in saltwater a few months back. I mean I heard that happened, someone told me it did, I would never let that occur of course. Lie.
 
"Connectors can be replaced to save the rest of the cable."

The hassle is folks tend to purchase cheaper cable with molded ends , rather than say Hubbel with removable ends.

A few bucks more at the start can save , later.
 
To sort of close this out, ends up that I had 2 problems. First was in my inverter. I don't pretend to understand but there was a problem with something on the circuit board that was causing a ground/neutral issue. It was supposed to close the ground or neutral or whatever at a particular time and it was staying open. Or the other way around. Man I hate electrical stuff. Second issue was a ground/neutral problem with my stove top. Pinched wiring due to bad install. Supposedly fixed now, will see how the zincs do. Still haven't touched my power cords to check them but...that moved up the list one place.
 
Back
Top Bottom