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Old 05-12-2017, 06:36 AM   #1
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Drop in LiFePO4 batt

These folks claim their LiFePO4

batt will work with a std alt and charging systems.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/

For the anchoring folks , perhaps a help?
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:08 AM   #2
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At $900 each they might be a bit out of reach to replace a higher AH bank.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:50 AM   #3
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Counting the protective electronics I assume built-in, that's normal pricing for LFP. I would still bring charging volts down to 13.9 and not push all the way to full for longevity.

Wonder if it has low temp protection?

G31, drops perfectly into an ArkPak 730 for a neat "light weight" (for the AH) all-in-one

Add a panel

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01M5DCPKD

and you've a very solid 'portable solar generator' for camping out on that deserted isle, or in a van.

A Firefly would be second choice, $400 cheaper but lots heavier.
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Old 05-12-2017, 07:53 AM   #4
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I do appreciate the comparison with FLA batteries shown in the web site:

Li batteries can be discharged to zero whereas FLA batteries should not be discharged beyond 50%. Also Li batteries will last for more charge/discharge cycles than FLAs.

But FLA batteries don't catch on fire. Will these? LiFePO4 batteries are thought to be inherently safe, but....

I would only use something like this when weight and size were critical. OK for an electric car, but I don't see that being the case for a boat.

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Old 05-12-2017, 08:03 AM   #5
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These folks claim their LiFePO4

batt will work with a std alt and charging systems.

https://battlebornbatteries.com/

For the anchoring folks , perhaps a help?
Battle Born / Dragonfly are one in the same, two brands by the same company..

Any LFP battery with an internal BMS & contactor that lack external communication to the DC charge system for proper shut down, should avoided for use on a boat.

Simple question:

Let's say your alt regulator or inverter/charger have a hiccup or glitch and push the LFP battery to a disconnect/open circuit while charging.

What happens to everything on your DC bus when the voltage transient, caused by an open circuit load dump, shoots your DC bus through the roof?


I know of no regulation circuitry that can react fast enough, with a charge source at full bore, to eliminate the possibility of a voltage transient causing damage to your gear. This includes alt regulators, inverters and other charge sources.

There is a reason the ABYC is working on a standard to address high capacity lithium ion batteries.

"Drop in" LI batteries that lack external communication, that can properly shut down charge sources BEFORE a disconnect occurs, is just one of the issues with "drop in" batteries.

Look into how Victron, Mastervolt, OPE/Li3 all do their BMS systems before you consider a drop in LFP battery.

As sealed Li battery that can't externally communicate is simply sales guys trying to get into your pants like a cheap prom date....

What happens when the ABYC standard is finalized and your "drop in" does not meet the minimum safe design and installation requirements? What will your insurer say?
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:12 AM   #6
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If the alt is directly wired to lead starters and/or a Reserve bank.

And all LFP charged via DCDC and/or other sources.

?
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:30 AM   #7
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I do appreciate the comparison with FLA batteries shown in the web site:

Li batteries can be discharged to zero whereas FLA batteries should not be discharged beyond 50%. Also Li batteries will last for more charge/discharge cycles than FLAs.

But FLA batteries don't catch on fire. Will these? LiFePO4 batteries are thought to be inherently safe, but....

I would only use something like this when weight and size were critical. OK for an electric car, but I don't see that being the case for a boat.

David
I'd hate for my car to burn up, but I could live with it.
But I live on my boat most of the time, and I like to be able to leave it unattended.

I can't see LiFePO4 batts working on boats for a long time, so long in fact, that they gt jumped over, like 8-track tapes.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
I do appreciate the comparison with FLA batteries shown in the web site:

Li batteries can be discharged to zero whereas FLA batteries should not be discharged beyond 50%. Also Li batteries will last for more charge/discharge cycles than FLAs.

But FLA batteries don't catch on fire. Will these? LiFePO4 batteries are thought to be inherently safe, but....

I would only use something like this when weight and size were critical. OK for an electric car, but I don't see that being the case for a boat.

David


I was at Costco last week and noticed their Interstate GC2 batteries are under $80. 210AH. So for $160 you get get 100Ah of usable power. If a typical GC2 bank lasts 5 years, you would need to use the LIPo for over 25 years to break even on the cost.

Did I fail at math again?
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:25 AM   #9
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Did I fail at math again?
No, you didn't. These kind of comparisons always favor the home team and overstate costs and understate cycle life for the competition.

The posts about no feedback from the BMS to the charging sources are interesting. It would be like turning the 1,2,all,off switch to off while the engine is charging- it will blow the regulator diodes.

But can't the BMS simply taper off its charging input over a few seconds. That should save the alternator diodes or charger electronics.

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Old 05-12-2017, 10:43 AM   #10
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I think LiFePO will become big in boats over the next 5 years. Less weight and volume per Ah of usable capacity is nice, but I don't think it's the killer benefit. The killer benefit for a cruiser I think is being able to charge them as full tilt right up until they are full with none of this wretched absorption tail that lead acid batteries have. That means less generator time at anchor, much better generator loading, and fully charged batteries, all of which are elusive for cruisers.

They will be much less interesting for dock to dock cruisers, but for people who anchor with regularity and who consequently really use their batteries, I think they are very compelling.
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #11
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Those would definitely be benefits. It may also get rid of some of the advantages of solar systems for cruisers. My limited understanding is that solar can give you the chance to get LA batteries up to full charge without running a genset forever. Rapid absorption may eliminate that need?
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:23 AM   #12
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LFP cannot be discharged to true zero without killing them.

A BMS defined "safe zero" SoC is different.

LFP is not fire-risky like the other Li-ion chemistries you've heard of.

Of course very large low-resistance banks have some increased risks compared to traditional/cheaper high-resistance ones, but that's true of expensive high-CAR lead chemistries too, mostly AGM I believe.

The advantages of LFP: fast-charge, no need to fill, more usable AH, lighter less bulky and lasting for decades

I think will lead to increased usage in coming years.

That last one actually makes DIY banks cheaper than quality AGM if you do get maximum life out of them, just that isn't a sure thing for DIYers just yet, so the big up-front investment is risky.

But for those inclined to experiment who can afford it, a couple grand will get you started with a few hundred AH as an extra bank.
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:34 PM   #13
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If the alt is directly wired to lead starters and/or a Reserve bank.

And all LFP charged via DCDC and/or other sources.

?
Think through this critically, at the wiring diagram / system schematic level.....
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Old 05-12-2017, 01:49 PM   #14
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The posts about no feedback from the BMS to the charging sources are interesting. It would be like turning the 1,2,all,off switch to off while the engine is charging- it will blow the regulator diodes.
It very often does a lot more damage than just blowing the alternator diodes because the alt remains connected to the DC loads at the "C" post. The transient created by open circuiting the alternator rips through your vessels DC system too, not just the alternator.

I have had some passes through OFF, usually during bulk charging, cost owners in excess of 5K in damaged electronics etc... People are aware of the alt diodes but rarely tie the open-circuit-event to failures of electronics, lighting etc., to the "pass through off".. In my experience "passes through OFF", with the alt running, are the number one transient issue that I see damage stuff on boats.

This is why running the alt direct to the house bank is so critical. I still get about 5-8 of these "I passed through off." events each year, despite the battery switch warnings that are clear as day and written right on them.

In about 6 out of 8 it's not just the alt diodes that get fried. Now transpose this type of event to LFP where the alt will almost always be in full output and.... D'oh......
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:10 PM   #15
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Think through this critically, at the wiring diagram / system schematic level.....
What do you mean? The Alt gets directly connected to a normal lead bank, no risk of sudden load dump.

Sterling Battery-to-Battery DCDC charger charges LFP using custom programmed setpoints.

Or, while on the hook, a small genset or lots of solar does the LFP charging.

Completely straightforward solution to that particular problem, and many other possibilities to boot.

The need for (usually expensive proprietary) BMS "solutions" is way overblown, profiteers fear-mongering based on people conflating LiFePO4 with exploding batteries of completely different Li-ion chemistries.

There's a few simple rules to follow to get decades out of these banks, and a real need for HowTo's in plain language spelling out inexpensive, "open hardware" infrastructure that will allow us to DIY from competitively priced bare cells.

Viking Star's ThomasOW (?) smart Arduino-based regulator is a great example, and I hope harbinger of other related projects.

/rantOff
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:14 PM   #16
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I have had some passes through OFF, usually during bulk charging, cost owners in excess of 5K in damaged electronics etc... People are aware of the alt diodes but rarely tie the open-circuit-event to failures of electronics, lighting etc., to the "pass through off".. In my experience "passes through OFF", with the alt running, are the number one transient issue that I see damage stuff on boats.
Why would you ever keep such a poorly designed switch?

Not like Blue Sea's AFD-equipped versions are even that expensive.

Or a switch layout that doesn't have an Off option in the Alt output, IMO such switches should be for directing loads, not charge sources.
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:23 PM   #17
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What do you mean? The Alt gets directly connected to a normal lead bank, no risk of sudden load dump.

Sterling Battery-to-Battery DCDC charger charges LFP using custom programmed setpoints.

Or, while on the hook, a small genset or lots of solar does the LFP charging.

Completely straightforward solution to that particular problem, and many other possibilities to boot.

The need for (usually expensive proprietary) BMS "solutions" is way overblown, profiteers fear-mongering based on people conflating LiFePO4 with exploding batteries of completely different Li-ion chemistries.

There's a few simple rules to follow to get decades out of these banks, and a real need for HowTo's in plain language spelling out inexpensive, "open hardware" infrastructure that will allow us to DIY from competitively priced bare cells.

Viking Star's ThomasOW (?) smart Arduino-based regulator is a great example, and I hope harbinger of other related projects.

/rantOff
John,

You might find your answer in CMS's detailed website post here. His expertise and credibility in this field is impressive.

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

His site is filled with useful, detailed information for boaters like us. It's well worth a bookmark for future reference.
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Old 05-12-2017, 04:01 PM   #18
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Here's a link to a TF Member who did diy lithium batteries.

https://marazuladventures.files.word...batteries8.pdf
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Old 05-12-2017, 06:00 PM   #19
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John,

You might find your answer in CMS's detailed website post here. His expertise and credibility in this field is impressive.

LiFePO4 Batteries - Thoughts & Musings Photo Gallery by Compass Marine How To at pbase.com

His site is filled with useful, detailed information for boaters like us. It's well worth a bookmark for future reference.
CMS is Maine Sail?

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Old 05-12-2017, 06:01 PM   #20
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