Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 04-10-2013, 07:49 PM   #141
Senior Member
 
MVNoPlans's Avatar
 
City: Olympia
Country: USA
Vessel Name: No Plans
Vessel Model: 1965 TollyCraft Voyager
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 100
[QUOTE=SomeSailor;148374] I promised myself I wouldn't get sucked into an argument from some old guy with nothing better to do with his day, but in typical fashion that's whats played out.

I think, according to rules set forth in another thread, you can just say "No Comment" as the trump card! Thanks for the info amigo
__________________
Advertisement

MVNoPlans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 07:54 PM   #142
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,881
I hope you know that I appreciate the time you took to make the diagram.

At first I didn't understand what you were talking about it as I said...a picture is worth a thousand words.

Once you posted the diagram I instantly saw what you meant and how the system was just fine.

I didn't want to butt in so I let you do a great job of explaining it.

My mantra here is to learn and teach different ways of doing things. People that say my way, it's the only way, etc..etc...well just let me say...etc...etc....

And I meant what I said about possibly copying it...
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 07:55 PM   #143
Guru
 
SomeSailor's Avatar
 
City: Everett, WA
Vessel Name: Honey Badger
Vessel Model: 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 784
Yeah. I let myself get drug into these.

The irony is I was scratching my head trying to figure out how the PO wired it (and why). He's deceased. But it's very clever. Makes the best out of a 2000W inverter and allows the essentials to be powered while underway by inverter... and then simply passes the genset AC through when you get where you're going.

No switches, no complicated procedures, no worries.

Thanks Dave Davis wherever you are.

SomeSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 09:24 PM   #144
Guru
 
swampu's Avatar


 
City: Biloxi, MS
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cajun Rose
Vessel Model: Biloxi Lugger
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,144
Man, I like the diagram. Everything seems to have a breaker of some sort already installed. It would be simple to install an inline fuse if anyone was worried. Thanks for taking the time to draw it up. Paul
swampu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 01:54 AM   #145
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:





I think of it more as an alternative source. There is no subpanel required (or desired)
Where does propulsion-engine generator fit into this scheme? Electricity confounds me.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 02:16 AM   #146
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Where does propulsion-engine generator fit into this scheme? Electricity confounds me.
It does me, too, Mark. Especially AC. I cannot understand how energy that simply goes back and forth 60 times a second but never actually goes anywhere can do any work.

DC I undertand a little better. The positive electricicals are rushing helter skelter down the wires to the negative terminal so at least along the way they can do something useful like move a piano or light up a lightbulb.

The one rule I have managed to retain from some high school class or other is that the primary objective when dealing with electricity is to not let any smoke escape from a wire. The smoke is in there, IIRC, to direct and assist the electricicals on their journey and if it starts getting out the electricals become confused and angry and set fire to stuff.

So I think the only really important thing to remember when setting up any kind of electrical system-- in your house, on a boat, whatever--- is not to let any smoke out. If you accomplish that, I don't think the rest of it like circuit breakers and fuses and panels and sub-panels really matters.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 06:58 AM   #147
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by SomeSailor View Post
Bingo. Only difference in mine is the fact my inverter won't hold up the whole boat so it's wired only to the fridge outlet and two others.

Here's the diagram again:


Obviously, the inverter has a built in transfer switch. Many do not and would require an external transfer switch.

Maybe I missed it in all this confusion, but where is the circuit protection for the circuits powered by the inverter?
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 07:57 AM   #148
Senior Member
 
supertramp's Avatar
 
Country: Cubazuela
Vessel Name: " Supertramp "
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Widebody 50 feet
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Obviously, the inverter has a built in transfer switch. Many do not and would require an external transfer switch.

Maybe I missed it in all this confusion, but where is the circuit protection for the circuits powered by the inverter?
Ron the protection are in the panel with !!!! one thermoel. swich por circuit.
When i used the invertir transfer swich only the inverterconsum are load with 110 Volt.

_________________________-
Norbert
supertramp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 08:02 AM   #149
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertramp View Post
Ron the protection are in the panel with !!!! one thermoel. swich por circuit.
When i used the invertir transfer swich only the inverterconsum are load with 110 Volt.

_________________________-
Norbert
Is the protection for the inverter output internal to the inverter?

On my boat I cut the cable from the panel breaker to the receptacle circuit and connected it to the (120 volt AC) input of the inverter (it has a built in transfer switch).

I connected the inverter's output to an additional breaker on the electrical panel and connected the receptacle circuit to this breaker.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 08:12 AM   #150
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,789
You can find the diagrams for my "elaborate" system at the Magnum link I posted wto the installation manual. You can also find it in the manuals for Xantrex, and Outback. So you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with them, and indirectly, with the ABYC. There is nothing elaborate about it all, IMO, much simpler and safer than breaking a panel apart
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 10:56 AM   #151
Senior Member
 
supertramp's Avatar
 
Country: Cubazuela
Vessel Name: " Supertramp "
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Widebody 50 feet
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
Is the protection for the inverter output internal to the inverter?
.
My Xantrex inverter ( solo inverter ) has a protection intern for output line.
My output has a ON/OFF switch in line to the panel--no more.
_____________________
Norbert
supertramp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:40 AM   #152
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertramp View Post
My Xantrex inverter ( solo inverter ) has a protection intern for output line.
My output has a ON/OFF switch in line to the panel--no more.
_____________________
Norbert
I believe mine does too but it's 25 amp and where the inverter is installed, I would have to remove some screws to get to it. That's why I put a breaker in the electrical panel.

As long as the internal protection is appropriate for the wires and outlets, you are fine as is.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:52 AM   #153
Senior Member
 
supertramp's Avatar
 
Country: Cubazuela
Vessel Name: " Supertramp "
Vessel Model: Marine Trader Widebody 50 feet
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I believe mine does too but it's 25 amp and where the inverter is installed, I would have to remove some screws to get to it. That's why I put a breaker in the electrical panel.

As long as the internal protection is appropriate for the wires and outlets, you are fine as is.
Ron , take a look in your inverter-manual and you know your inverter has an intern protect on the output side or not.
My 3000 Xantrex are protected but the model not so big are not this protection.

________________________
Norbert
supertramp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 11:58 AM   #154
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by supertramp View Post
Ron , take a look in your inverter-manual and you know your inverter has an intern protect on the output side or not.
My 3000 Xantrex are protected but the model not so big are not this protection.

________________________
Norbert
The manual is on the boat, but as I have it wired, I have external circuit protection appropriate for the wires that feed the receptacles.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 06:09 PM   #155
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
I'm like supertramp. A very simple hookup and it's worked great since I bought it. Mine is the Prosine before Xantrex and 1800 W. I run the whole boat with it and as I have propane to cook with I use AC for the fridge and TV if I ever watch it. I usually never watch TV off shore so my draw is the percentage of loss from the Prosine and the fridge that burns 155 watts for a total of 4 hours a day, divided throughout the day of course.
Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-11-2013, 06:36 PM   #156
TF Site Team
 
FlyWright's Avatar
 
City: California Delta and SF Bay
Country: Sacramento, CA, USA (boat in Vallejo)
Vessel Name: FlyWright
Vessel Model: Marshall Californian 34 LRC
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,175
Many manuals are available online today.

Mark, the engine-driven alternators (usually not generators) provide the DC charge to the batteries and would be located upstream from the batts. Therefore, they're not a real player in the AC schematic of power distribution.
__________________
Al

Custom Google Trawler Forum Search
FlyWright is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 01:15 PM   #157
Member
 
City: Chestertown, md
Country: united states
Vessel Name: Socially Sea Cured
Vessel Model: 1989 44' Heritage East Sundeck
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 17
We boat with a generator & inverter and I value them both. I dislike running a generator for five minutes to make coffee and then, an hour later firing it up for breakfast. It just seems to be rude to others who value their quiet in the AM. Our Freedom 20 inverter can power anything other than the AC Units. I would never run the stove on it but I know it will fire it up. Currently it runs off four group 8 AGM batteries that came with the boat but I will replace them with golf carts when they fail. Starting a generator, especially a diesel, for a few minutes will shorten its life considerably so the inverter actually pays for itself in generator maintenance.
jtbedell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 02:00 PM   #158
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,373
When I finally figured out how my inverter and AC panel are wired, I came to like it.

There are three circuit breakers on the main panel which are fed from a SPDT switch. One side comes from the inverter, the other from the main AC breaker. Of course the inverter itself is fed from a different breaker in the panel.

I can set the inverter on automatic, and the switch to "inverter", and those three circuits are fed from the AC main, through the inverter. If shore power is dropped, the inverter switches over and powers those three. When power comes back, they're back to sucking shore power.

The three breakers are (1) all the stbd outlets, (2) all the port outlets, and (3) the refrigerator.

I've tried plugging in a 1500W heater to one of the outlets and disconnecting shore power, and it just keeps chugging. It wouldn't last long before draining the house bank, but it proves the system works.

I'd need to run the noisemaker for A/C and any serious cooking (electric stove only), but I can use the microwave for a few minutes.

The weak link is the SPDT switch. It's rated for 20A but it's only a little toggle switch. We almost melted it in February running two electric heaters. I'm looking for a more robust one that still looks OK in the panel. Now that it's warmer out we should be OK until I get the A/C with reverse cycle heat hooked up, and that's on its own 30A shorepower circuit.
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 03:20 PM   #159
Senior Member
 
City: Dayton, OH
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 195
Cap'n Tom you could wire an industrial contactor (with a 24VDC operating coil) to your switch. Then run the load carrying cables through the contacts. The heavy load would be off that switch and through the contactor for reliable and safe operation. They also have a safety overload cutout to protect in the event of a short circuit or locked up motor. You could thus keep the little switch, no panel mods required.

Owners should check their electrical connections on the main cables while under maximum load. Just feel the cables and all connectors or splices for any warmth. A warm or hot connector needs attention, any cable getting very warm is too small and should be up-sized a step or two. The safety factor plus the efficiency of your boat's systems will make it worthwhile.

I don't have a boat, but worked 30 years building machinery and automation controls.

I would be very careful with the high amp DC electrical systems on some of these boats. They won't electrocute you, but they can sure burn the boat to the waterline if things go wrong.

This has been a great thread for me, just learning about your boats and their on-board systems. Fascinating.
Bluto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-30-2013, 04:22 PM   #160
Guru
 
CaptTom's Avatar
 
City: Southern Maine
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Cygnus
Vessel Model: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,373
Bluto, thanks, good suggestion! By "contactor" I assume you mean a relay? I'd need a 12V coil, not 24V. But it would be a lot safer.
__________________

CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012