Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-25-2014, 04:02 PM   #41
Guru
 
Capthead's Avatar
 
City: Long Beach, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Heads Up
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 42 Classic
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 950
I also hand steer. This is my final answer.
__________________
Advertisement

Capthead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 05:20 PM   #42
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,091
As with any task, I assess the risk and act accordingly.

Sometimes, that allows me the freedom to leave the helm for several minutes at a time while on autopilot. If I had better electronics, it may allow me to leave the helm for an hour or more in some situations.

We all boat under different conditions. Once I'm a couple hours out from my marina, traffic is very light. I often only see one boat a day when cruising. There are no crab/craypots in the open water around here. Flotsam is extremely rare.

Under those conditions, I have no problem with using the head, making a coffee, or checking the engine while underway singlehanded on autopilot.

In other conditions, I wouldn't leave the helm for a second.

Following one safety rule regardless of what the conditions are makes no sense to me.
__________________

AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 06:17 PM   #43
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
.....usually because they just haven't done it enough to see where the probabilities lie for "them".... not some generic model or some article written by "someone" else.....
Well said, and let me add, it's not just doing, but exposure to different methods and ideas that add to our experience.

One of the things that became obvious to me when I started my learning about boats is that after I had read just about everything that talked about power boats, my attitude and what i was willing to do or not do, was significantly different than it is now.

Why is that? In large part because the stuff that's been written, is not a cross section of power boat owners, but instead a small number of well funded power boat owners who gravitated to the boat they own as a self fulfilling prophecy.

THat's what influenced me in the beginning, so I made of the the same rules that other's have quoted above, such as:
never leave the helm,
never go out on deck at night,
etc, etc
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 07:05 PM   #44
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
Quote:
Originally Posted by northern spy View Post
people who fear risk tend to focus on the consequences and less on the likelihood.
Bingo!!!!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0663.JPG
Views:	57
Size:	99.2 KB
ID:	33865  
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 08:07 PM   #45
Guru
 
bligh's Avatar
 
City: Santa Cruz, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Frisky
Vessel Model: 99 Nordic Tug
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post

...it's pretty well been proven that the helmsman makes a less than perfect lookout in the big scheme of things....
It has? By whom? And for what types pf vessels, specifically?
bligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 08:26 PM   #46
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by bligh View Post
It has? By whom? And for what types pf vessels, specifically?
The USCG and just about all vessels.

Sorry I don't have the link handy...but read enough and you'll see why the USCG and most experts have come to the same conclusion.

Ever see the bridge crew on USCG large vessels?

Helmsman, OOD, Navigator and several lookouts...all have separate requirements to not be distracted...even the "deck" and "conn" can be split between 2 people.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 09:53 PM   #47
Guru
 
Northern Spy's Avatar
 
City: Powell River, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Northern Spy
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 26
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,665
I routinely drove a 360' ship at speeds greater than 25 knots without ever looking to see what was in front of me. In fact not a single lookout was even posted!
Northern Spy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 10:01 PM   #48
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Spy View Post
I routinely drove a 360' ship at speeds greater than 25 knots without ever looking to see what was in front of me. In fact not a single lookout was even posted!
I don't think they have lookouts on these either...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	_59087367_boring_machine_976.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	95.6 KB
ID:	33867  
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 10:05 PM   #49
Guru
 
bligh's Avatar
 
City: Santa Cruz, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Frisky
Vessel Model: 99 Nordic Tug
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,096
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The USCG and just about all vessels.

Sorry I don't have the link handy...but read enough and you'll see why the USCG and most experts have come to the same conclusion.

Ever see the bridge crew on USCG large vessels?

Helmsman, OOD, Navigator and several lookouts...all have separate requirements to not be distracted...even the "deck" and "conn" can be split between 2 people.
Forget about the uscg cutters and the merchant marine and the faa.

Show me a study that using an autopilot on a 20 to 50 ft boat is proven to be safer. Otherwise you should be a gentleman and retract your previous statement.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/elec...ns/default.asp
http://d6.boatingmag.com/boatingsafe...ot-safety-tips
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/sp...says.html?_r=0
http://www.bohrerlaw.com/blog/2014/0...-boater-death/
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77880786,d.cGE
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...77880786,d.cGE
bligh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2014, 10:13 PM   #50
Guru
 
hollywood8118's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend Washington
Country: USA
Vessel Name: " OTTER "
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander Europa 40
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
Bingo!!!!
I WOULD rather die from Ebola than marry Kim Kardashian!!!



HOLLYWOOD
hollywood8118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 07:50 AM   #51
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Actually you first asked about my statement where the driver makes a lousy lookout....again...the USCG has said that for over decades even in small boats...

but you went on to mention autopilots and the following will address that below

.................................................. ....................................

I'll only emphatically state it again...but like all things...people have to be smarter than the equipment they are using...

Look at the BoatUS article...it doesn't address the good of an autopilot...it's just a reminder article of "don't be stupid" as you still have other things to do.

Here's one of the opening lines of the last article linked to..."VANCOUVER -- The officer in charge of navigating the Queen of the North passenger ferry when it sank seven years ago ordered another crew member -- his former lover -- to switch the ferry off of autopilot shortly before it struck an island, but she says she didn't know how to do that."

Seriously????? That's an example of why an autopilot is dangerous versus valuable????

Autopilots are there to take the burden of concentration of one aspect or two of driving a boat...much like cruise control in a car. If you can't handle cruise control (like I know a few people who can't)...they can contribute to an accident also...but the millions of safe drivers that use it every day aren't out there banging down the doors of car manufacturers saying how dangerous it is and it should be removed.

Now if you want to discuss a "teen lockout" on cruise control..maybe that's a good idea...so maybe a "newbie boater" lockout on autopilots might be a good idea too.

Like I said...it's not the fault of the autopilot being bad or dangerous...it's the skipper and the AP misuse.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 08:11 AM   #52
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,783
To my way of thinking and boating, generalized statements about the need for lookout and use of autopilot are worthless. It depends completely on conditions. In many conditions the autopilot allows me to keep a much better 360 degree watch and enjoy the surroundings, including use of binoculars. In others I must have hands on the helm, radar fully deployed and a second lookout to feel at all safe. In others, somewhere in between.

90% of the time the boat is on autopilot, we have the remote control in hand to "power steer" as needed, so not really away from the helm per se.
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 08:23 AM   #53
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by caltexflanc View Post
To my way of thinking and boating, generalized statements about the need for lookout and use of autopilot are worthless. It depends completely on conditions. In many conditions the autopilot allows me to keep a much better 360 degree watch and enjoy the surroundings, including use of binoculars. In others I must have hands on the helm, radar fully deployed and a second lookout to feel at all safe. In others, somewhere in between.

90% of the time the boat is on autopilot, we have the remote control in hand to "power steer" as needed, so not really away from the helm per se.
...and boat speed is certainly a big factor in pushing one set of conditions to be either AP "on" or "off"...such as density of floats or debris field....

like mentioned before about comfort level....I use the AP for about 90% of the ICW where others have said it shouldn't or can't be used...leaving it on in proximity to "dangers" also increases my proximity to the "off" button and the helm.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 09:23 AM   #54
TF Site Team
 
Bay Pelican's Avatar
 
City: Chicago, IL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Bay Pelican
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,777
Another factor, my autopilot is a much better helmsman than I am. I have taken the same 24 nm run a couple of dozen times in the last five years. I can see by the chart plotter tracks where I have had to hand steer versus the autopilot.The autopilot tracks are all a straight line whereas handsteering weaves back and forth along the rhumb line. In terms of distance covered I guess that while handsteering we have added a mile, two or three to the distance. In terms of diesel consumed that is enough to pay for a beer.
__________________
Marty
Bay Pelican is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 09:28 AM   #55
Senior Member
 
SaltyDawg86's Avatar
 
City: Carrollton, Va
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 390
You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.
SaltyDawg86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 09:45 AM   #56
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.
Well when you get your boat those times when AP is dangerous will hopefully be discerned prior to rather than after the fact.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 10:53 AM   #57
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,101
One thing to add to the autopilot discussion. Learn to use all it's features. Not long ago I was talking to a Captain with 40 years of experience who was not aware of the adjustments he could make to his autopilot. He had obviously never read the manual and never tested it's functions.

Also, know when not to use it. And use it to enhance your ability not to replace yourself at the helm.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 02:18 PM   #58
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
...and boat speed is certainly a big factor in pushing one set of conditions to be either AP "on" or "off"...such as density of floats or debris field....

like mentioned before about comfort level....I use the AP for about 90% of the ICW where others have said it shouldn't or can't be used...leaving it on in proximity to "dangers" also increases my proximity to the "off" button and the helm.

Well said Paul
__________________
M/Y Dauntless, New York
a Kadey Krogen 42 Currently https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Blog: https://dauntlessatsea.com
Find us: https://share.delorme.com/dauntless
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2014, 02:19 PM   #59
Guru
 
City: Venice Louisiana
Country: United States
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,097
One of my many AP situations : winter morning lower Miss, 31 foot Ameracat, 6 paying customers, fishing charter going out offshore to Medusa rig, solid banked in fog cant see past the bow rail, typical traffic thick as he!! big tugs crabbers ships shrimpers dredges etc., Chatter on the VHF is intense and you need to know what they mean as they are looking out for you, my radar is on 1/2 mile, autopilot following a preset track that is proven safe (one of several), making 10 to 15 knots, a lookout is a waste of time as I need my deckhand watching that radar, thats his only job, I'm on the vhf and listening for signals while talking to other traffic. My customers get chastized and told to shutup and sit down until we get offshore and out of the fog. They see my intensity and concern and shutup/sitdown. The auto pilot is important.
kulas44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2014, 03:36 PM   #60
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyDawg86 View Post
You better believe when I get me a boat, that joker will have autopilot! I've never seen where autopilot is dangerous.
I hope you can understand that using an autopilot with other boats nearby is very dangerous. Using an autopilot on many portions of the AICW will have you grounded in no time. Using one in an area with crab or lobster pots will have your prop tangled in line pretty quickly.

Before you buy your boat, leave the dock and flip on the autopilot, I hope you will take the time to learn about boating and safe operation of your boat.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012