Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 11-03-2014, 09:20 AM   #241
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
I just got around to reading the article on page 27, Shop Talk, A Boat, a Whale and Fate, by Devin Zwick in the October 2014 issue of PassageMaker. He has managed to say in one page what I thought I had been trying to say for the last two months: its not about one particular thing, its about a system.

During my Passage, I had a plan for every conceivable contingency and it fact the issues I had, I dealt with and these systems got me to my destination.

I am continuing to harp on this because as I read the many passionate responses to the initial question, there are some here who in their response seem to believe that if they do one thing right, they will be OK. On watch, instead of one eye, we use two, instead of two, we use four, etc., therefore were safe and anything less is not.

So this article hit home because here was a paranoid owner who did far more than most and still Stuff happens.
I think one needs to just relook at the initial question of this thread. It is "Do you keep a constant lookout?" It has nothing to do with what someone else might do or how you feel about what someone else does or did. Stating "I would never do such and such" or "I do such and such all the time" is a simple answer to the question posed and doesn't imply necessarily that you think someone else is wrong. The answer to that question for me was "Yes" and for you it's "No."

The question also has nothing to do with all the other issues of boating. Nothing to do with issues such as fuel, such as weather.

Just because one person does something doesn't mean it's right for others. I do have to say one thing. Just because we get to our destination doesn't mean what we did was best or that we'd do it the same way again. I learn things every day on the water. But then I still learn them on the roads. A few days ago someone ran a stop light in front of me. Thank goodness for anti-lock breaks. He got to his destination. There's not one of us who has never made a mistake on the road or the water and either someone else was looking out for us or we were just lucky.

We're all here to learn. Sometimes it's just about our fellow boaters and when they answer a question like the one posed in this thread with an answer we can't imagine giving, at the very least it teaches us how others think, others sharing the water with us. I remember the first time I saw a boat with no "driver", no one at the helm. You don't see this on the road much. I was worried that something had happened. Then he reappeared with a huge sandwich in his hand and I went on my way.

I made a trip last weekend. I did it in two days and doing it over I would have left a day earlier. If one had asked "Is there anything you would have done differently I could quickly answer, get in a few hours the day before. Returning I took three days.

But to say we would or we wouldn't do something isn't by itself condemning those on the other side.

Now autopilot came into play because it's an essential part of various answers to the initial question.
__________________
Advertisement

BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 09:31 AM   #242
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
"Do you keep a constant lookout?"

I think for people to learn anything, its important to not just answer "Yes" or "No", but to state why we do or don't. Unfortunately, this leads to arguments because most of us post from our own experiences without considering how or where others might use their boats.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 10:10 AM   #243
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
"Do you keep a constant lookout?" Unfortunately, this leads to arguments because most of us post from our own experiences without considering how or where others might use their boats.
Sometimes our own experiences are flat wrong or outright dangerous. That is where the old term "Darwin at work" comes into play. Remembering of course the Beagle did not have AP, SPOT or EPIRB.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 01:10 PM   #244
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,129
But it's actually easy to post our own experiences and own thoughts in what we would do or not do as well as the reasons why and someone else can do the same without us jumping in to tell each other we're wrong. Our believes are probably clear from what we post. But to argue about our beliefs on this subject is somewhat futile as those who believe their approach is great aren't going to be swayed.

Almost as fruitless as arguing politics.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 01:24 PM   #245
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 13,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Sometimes our own experiences are flat wrong or outright dangerous. That is where the old term "Darwin at work" comes into play. Remembering of course the Beagle did not have AP, SPOT or EPIRB.
Well, one of our first cruising books was a guy totally unprepared and not well trained who sailed single handed around the world. It was an enjoyable book to read but throughout it were things we would never do, never consider doing. What he did was far beyond our risk tolerance plus a good part of it went outside what we'd consider pleasurable. Still his book was pleasurable to read, even if half the time we were thinking "what a fool."

I'd never sky dive or bungee jump. But others enjoy them.

I encountered a very interesting situation involving risk recently. An elderly lady, in her 80's, who is a friend of ours was recently in a nursing home. They were scared to let her walk even with a walker and used a wheel chair. Convinced it would be unsafe for her to walk alone. Less than ten days after going home, her home health physical therapist has her doing everything with the walker and the wheelchair is in the closet. The mobility makes her life so much better. But is there a risk she'll fall and break a hip? Absolutely. Nursing home had no risk tolerance. Home health let her decide what her tolerance was. She chose. The right decision for her. Now whether she never falls or she does fall never changes whether the choice was "right" and doesn't mean it's right or wrong for others. And just because she hasn't fallen, doesn't mean the risk isn't there. We exited an inlet Saturday a week ago that most do not exit. We had a towboat escort us out and had talked to the Coast Guard. We had no problem. But that doesn't mean there is not a risk in exiting that inlet. And it doesn't mean our choice is right or wrong or appropriate for anyone else.

Now, I do have concern in newcomers being taught the "wrong" things. But who determines what is "right" or "wrong?" Hopefully they see enough posts of all types to choose what they think is right for them. And hopefully they get some good training or exposure outside of a web forum from someone they truly feel is trustworthy. It's just like the opinions offered on boats.
BandB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #246
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
Sometimes our own experiences are flat wrong or outright dangerous.
Yes they are but that's when the arguments start. I might think something is dangerous based on my understanding and previous study but another person may have been doing that very thing for years without incident and feels the need to defend his doing it.

I often feel web forums do more harm than good, especially for new boaters.
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 03:56 PM   #247
TF Site Team
 
Baker's Avatar
 
City: League City, Tx
Country: Texas
Vessel Model: Carver 356
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 5,630
Alright...so we are distilling this post down to what it really is. Risk management and risk tolerance. And also safety as a "system" of resources.

And B&B, your last few posts were very nicely said and well thought out!!!!
__________________
Prairie 29...Perkins 4236...Sold
Mainship Pilot 30...Yanmar 4LHA-STP...Sold
Carver 356...T-Cummins 330B
Baker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 03:58 PM   #248
TF Site Team
 
Larry M's Avatar
 
City: JAX, FL
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Hobo
Vessel Model: Krogen 42-120
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,726
This happen yesterday at ~2330hrs UTC. Thomas Coville crashed his 31 meter trimaran into a freighter in the opening hours of the Route du Rhum transatlantic yacht race.

Covillle recalled:
"Today I feel like I have been a victim in a car accident. I feel like a truck collided with me a motorcycle at night....An engine alarm went off, a battery charge reminder, so I went back inside because I was surprised that after eight hours I would need to be recharging. There was nothing wrong so I went back and there I saw on it on my screen ... You can imagine that on our boats we do not have a lot of visibility, that it is dark, there were squalls and lots of rain and that basically we sail like aeroplane pilots or like traffic controllers, using the radar. ...I could see that there were two cargo ships close to me. I was sailing in wind mode, which basically means you sail taking into account the variable winds and waves. If I am sailing at 25 knots and the container is at 18 knots, we had a closing speed of 40 knots. Basically the two miles was covered in one minute and thirty seconds. I get out on deck having started the engine and manage to get the right gear and it is just when I look up and see this big black all cross in front of me and I hit it 1.5 metres or maybe 3 metres from the back. We just did not quite pass behind and but for three metres we would have passed OK.
Larry M is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 04:52 PM   #249
Grand Vizier
 
Delfin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post

Now, I do have concern in newcomers being taught the "wrong" things. But who determines what is "right" or "wrong?" Hopefully they see enough posts of all types to choose what they think is right for them. And hopefully they get some good training or exposure outside of a web forum from someone they truly feel is trustworthy. It's just like the opinions offered on boats.
One advantage of a forum is that you get to hear from a number of people on a topic. It is then possible to differentiate between the eccentric opinions of a few folks from those commonly held by a majority of operators. Of course it is always possible the lonely weirdo is correct and the majority wrong, but it doesn't happen often.
__________________
Delfin
"Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." - Jack Handy
Delfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 05:01 PM   #250
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,872
I don't view forums much different than walking up and down the docks and talking to people.

If you can't sort out the wheat from the chaff...it's just as much you as the medium that you are tapping into.

It's not hard to tell those who have a cue and those that don't...it's just how accurate the info being passed really is. It's just reading people as if you were picking the best contractor to do a job for you or finally selecting a medical professional because there's just something there...

If it's about a homemade cleaner for use on the docks...I'll try just about anything that I read unless it contains a complicated mix of chemicals I'm not familiar with. If it's taking apart a $3500 dollar fuel pump or dismantling my Radome and rewiring it for slightly better performance...I might try a few local experts I know and trust and run the idea past them first..even if I have to pay for help.

No...forums are neither the scourge of the earth for anyone including newbies or the fountain of all knowledge....they are what you make them.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 06:07 PM   #251
Guru
 
caltexflanc's Avatar
 
City: North Carolina for now
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Small Incentive
Vessel Model: Boston Whaler 130 Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,786
Ah yes, brings to mind one of my very favorite quotes of all time. This, in discussion of The Bounty sinking a couple years ago:


"He had clearly confused the lack of failure with success, and may have begun to truly believe his own advice."

-Mario Vittone, on gcaptain, re: Robin Walbridge, last captain of the "Bounty"
__________________
George

"There's the Right Way, the Wrong Way, and what some guy says he's gotten away with"
caltexflanc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 06:55 PM   #252
TF Site Team
 
ksanders's Avatar
 
City: SEWARD ALASKA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: LISAS WAY
Vessel Model: BAYLINER 4788
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baker View Post
Alright...so we are distilling this post down to what it really is. Risk management and risk tolerance. And also safety as a "system" of resources.

And B&B, your last few posts were very nicely said and well thought out!!!!
Precisely!

There is no "right" and there is no "wrong" when it comes to risk tolerance.

If somebody is willing to assume risk, who am I to question that? As long as they know the risk, then it is theirs to assume.
__________________
Kevin Sanders
Bayliner 4788
Seward, Alaska
www.mvlisasway.com
ksanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 07:05 PM   #253
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,872
All most of us can do is make suggestions on how to mitigate the risks.

The quality of those suggestions usually are based on the experience, training, ability, aptitude and cautiousness of the responder.

The poster has to evaluate and decide the trustworthiness of that advice.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 07:08 PM   #254
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,254
That's fine as long as you presume others are ignorant of the ColRegs and common sense unless otherwise shown, and you're playing defensive boating.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 07:16 PM   #255
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
That's fine as long as you presume others are ignorant of the ColRegs and common sense unless otherwise shown, and you're playing defensive boating.
Not sure what you are referring to?
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 07:39 PM   #256
Senior Member
 
Lollygag's Avatar
 
City: Valley Springs
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Lollygag
Vessel Model: 1979 42' CHB Europa
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 259
I singlehanded the baja bash from La Paz to Santa Barbara. I did not maintain a constant watch. It is not possible for 9 days. I did try to take small naps in the day and stay awake at night but even that didn't work too well. I never got in trouble, no near misses or anything, but it wasn't my cup of tea. So I get to say, yeah, I've singlehanded on passages but I prefer to have crew and a 24/7 watch.

Except for the trip from Mexico I usually have someone at the helm. The exceptions are using the head or getting coffee while on watch at night. That said, there isn't much out there if you stay out of the shipping lanes.
Lollygag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 08:16 PM   #257
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 10,254
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Not sure what you are referring to?
Some boaters may not be looking out for me.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 08:16 PM   #258
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Country: usa
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 6,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by ksanders View Post
Precisely!

There is no "right" and there is no "wrong" when it comes to risk tolerance.

.
Not so in the eyes of maritime law for a hearing into why the "accident" occurred. A solo sailor or yachtsman can indeed be held accountable for his actions if a loss of life or property occurs due to negligence, say a boat on AP with the helmsman "gone" which should have been the give way vessel and not doing so.

On land, insurance for many death or accident benefits clearly defines what is risky behavior in the case of skydiving, riding a motorcycle, skiing out of bounds etc.

Or in Baker's profession, risk definition and avoidance is pretty important and and a large part of the training.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 08:23 PM   #259
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,872
I do not think anyone thinks that there is a forgiveness clause associated with not manning the helm offshore.

There are risks for sure....legal, moral,and physical.

No one doing it should assume anything, but do it with open eyes and do what they can to minimize those risks, because even with a manned helm they all exist to some degree.
psneeld is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2014, 10:35 PM   #260
Guru
 
dhmeissner's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Country: North America
Vessel Name: The Promise
Vessel Model: Roughwater 35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,325
So I followed this thread for two pages, then skipped to page twelve jut now. I will answer "yes" we keep a constant lookout. Since I never single hand it's easy.
__________________

__________________
Dave & Suzie - Roughwater 35
http://thepromiserwb1029.org/2012/09...the-promise-2/
dhmeissner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012