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Old 02-19-2014, 11:23 PM   #21
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C Lectric, Yes, the cumulative amp draw is shown but that is for all appliances together as they come on and off. I collected the instantaneous amperages and estimated the daily requirements based on what I thought would be realistic for the usage this summer.

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Old 02-19-2014, 11:40 PM   #22
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Ok, yes, I understand what you have done. I thought the cumulative function was either missing or not functional.

Keep track and it will tell you as the seasons change and the equipment useage changes how good your estimates were.

Sounds like you are on your way.
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:12 AM   #23
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Of what value ia a SOC meter if a battery in a bank is partially or totally dead?

The SOC meter is a system , not used for just a one time snap shot.

IT observes the batts being charged (any source) and discharged and then gives a current state of charge .

If a batt fails usually its best to replace the entire set , not just one.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:50 PM   #24
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Jim,

nice summary, but as Larry mentioned, you really just need a full 24 hours not connected and see what your consumption really is.

Also,I think your Novacool is actually pretty close and the muffin fan will only make a small change, if measurable at all.

I replaced my halogen spreader lights with LEd's and they are just as bright. Halogens are a terrible power hog and heat producer. You can find LEDs that will replace with the same color.

lastly, one of the first things I did was to separate my start and house bank by buying ONE Group 31 as the new engine start and it works great.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:45 AM   #25
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Richard: I agree that monitoring a full 24 hour day is a good approach to the problem, however I'm trying to estimate the summertime consumption and it's currently winter. The fridge and freezer will be working the hardest when it's hot inside the boat. The method I used is referenced in Nigel Calder's book and the algebra is pretty straight forward. I was trying to obtain a ballpark estimate of consumption to see if I could replace the current bank with a smaller one and the answer is no. Also, note that the meter on the boat only measures the cumulative amp hours for the total vessel systems. I think it was important for me to understand which systems have the most draw. The large draw from "circumvent" was a surprise and I will consider that during the summer when I am off-grid.

Note that the Novacool draw includes the muffin fans, which go on and off as the fridge and freezer cycle on and off. I'm just trying to make the system more efficient by more effectively cooling down the space where the units are located. I intend to redirect the muffin fans' efforts to remove hot air from that space.

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Old 02-22-2014, 06:56 AM   #26
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Looking at the huge power requirements of this boat , my first thought would not be how to make and store that much power , but how could I live with 1/4 or 1/2 the daily power load.
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Old 02-22-2014, 07:36 AM   #27
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As an attempt to shed some load as FF suggests some thoughts are :

Is your Novakool a fridge freezer combination?
If yes, why do you need a separate freezer?
The purpose of the circumvent, as you noted, needs another look.
What does the bubbler do?

But when cruising, between the on engine alternator and genset it would appear you have no problems but merely curiosities.
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Old 02-22-2014, 08:35 AM   #28
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For anyone looking for a 0 to 60 volts DC and up to 130 amps version of a Kill A Watt meter, here is a DC Watt Meter.

Click image for larger version

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Measures current draw and cumulative total over an extended period. Wiring it inline with your fridge for a week would give you a real good idea of average consumption. Unfortunately they aren't as plug and play as the Kill A Watt meter. Have been very happy with mine for non boating related uses.

DC Watt Meter

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Old 02-22-2014, 11:21 AM   #29
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The fridge and freezer are separate and large units. As mentioned I intend to make them more efficient by adding insulation to the doors and providing better ventilation of the space where the units are housed. We are going to be away from reliable food stores for several months at a time so prefer these fridge and freezer units.

I like that kill a watt meter! Must get one.

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Old 05-13-2014, 10:16 AM   #30
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As mentioned elsewhere, I finally went through the approach of insulating the freeze and fridge doors and reversing the muffin heater fans so they vent air out of the pilothouse watch berth.

I talked to one of the managers at Novakool at the manufacturing plant when I weren't by to pick up a new gasket for the fridge. He mentioned that the duty cycle on these is typically 50%, meaning that they run 50% of the time. That will go up to 80% of the time on hot days.

So planning electrical loads on my system, that would work out to 4.9 amps for the fridge and 6.6 for the freezer, 11.5 amps or 138 amp hours for the day. Probably conservative.

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Old 05-13-2014, 12:15 PM   #31
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my draw for the Vitrifrigo Fridge and Freezer seems to average about 5 amps an hour or 120 amps, 1440 watts per 24 hours.

In the coming days, i will post a more detailed analysis. The addition for the solar panels has also made a huge difference.
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Old 05-13-2014, 12:43 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDCAVE View Post
We are going to be away from reliable food stores for several months at a time so prefer these fridge and freezer units.

Nowhere in the PNW are you away from reliable food stores months at a time. Days maybe, weeks at the most if you're a hermit. The whole area is set up to supply workers and fun seekers on the water.

Years ago we overstocked badly when traveling in the PNW and agonized over how to keep stuff frozen, it turned out to be not a concern and freezer size and needs dropped a lot.

We have some friends on a KK42 who justified a huge freezer for dog food storage different strokes.
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:10 AM   #33
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If I stay with the current size of bank, it would be prudent to fire up the generator after 36 hour or so.

The fastest charge from the noisemaker will come from a large alternator belted on to it with a smart V regulator .

IF your set is over 10KW , a large 150 A or more big buck battery charger Might be able to match the charge of a 135A alt.

The question then becomes TIME.

Will you pay 2x for batts that can accept a higher RATE of charge to lower noisemaker operating hours?

NOT requiring the energy is always cheaper than creating/storing it.

Extra insulation on the reefer?
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Old 05-14-2014, 11:27 AM   #34
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In my opinion... This whole power system thing that folks get into tends to miss the point completely from an engineering prospective.

The key to success is to size your battery bank, your charger, and your generator to compliment each other. Daily loads don't much matter from an engineering standpoint unless you have a pre-conceived "cycle time" target in mind, (as long as you can meet your peak load requirements)

Then, and only then is it prudent to look at your actual daily loads in an effort to lengthen your cycle time.

I'm going to use our boat as an example of a properly engineered power system.

We have...

840 amp hours of house bank
150 amp inverter/charger
9 KW generator

Everything is sized to work together.

Our battery bank can accept our chargers full output current, and recharge our battery bank in practice in a reasonable amount of time.

Our generator can supply the full current requirement of the charger, plus all the other loads we have on the boat.

Our actual DC loads are not relevant to this system design for the most part. All they do is determine how often we need to go in to a charge cycle.
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Old 05-14-2014, 12:23 PM   #35
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FF. Yes, I have insulated the refer units as best as I can. Also added 1inch high density foam on the doors.

House bank is 1125 (10 T-105's). Genset is a near new Entec West 4.1 kW, so it's small and it seems to be able to handle the charger. Inverter charger is an older Freedom 20, 100 amp. I'm expecting to cycle the batteries 50-80% SOC. 1-2 hours on the genset at 0.5 GPH. Will heat the water at the same time.
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Old 05-14-2014, 02:12 PM   #36
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[QUOTE=ksanders;233843

Our actual DC loads are not relevant to this system design for the most part. All they do is determine how often we need to go in to a charge cycle.[/QUOTE]

Another example:
I have only 420 ah house bank.
100 amp charger.
Daily DC load is about 250 amps per day.

250 amp load will require a genny run time of 2.5 hrs but with inefficiencies probably 3 hrs or more.

So I run the genny 1.5 hrs in am and again in pm.

If I plan on running the boat then the genny gets a rest as the 2 100 amp alternators will replenish the dc amps used in 1.5 hrs.
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:59 PM   #37
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Another example:
I have only 420 ah house bank.
100 amp charger.
Daily DC load is about 250 amps per day.

250 amp load will require a genny run time of 2.5 hrs but with inefficiencies probably 3 hrs or more.

So I run the genny 1.5 hrs in am and again in pm.

If I plan on running the boat then the genny gets a rest as the 2 100 amp alternators will replenish the dc amps used in 1.5 hrs.
Exactly!

Your system appears to be well designed, IE everything works together well

If you increased the size of your house bank you would probably want to increase your charger as well for example.
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Old 05-14-2014, 04:11 PM   #38
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FF. Yes, I have insulated the refer units as best as I can. Also added 1inch high density foam on the doors.

House bank is 1125 (10 T-105's). Genset is a near new Entec West 4.1 kW, so it's small and it seems to be able to handle the charger. Inverter charger is an older Freedom 20, 100 amp. I'm expecting to cycle the batteries 50-80% SOC. 1-2 hours on the genset at 0.5 GPH. Will heat the water at the same time.

If I'm reading your post correctly...

You intend to cycle between 50% and 80% on your 1125 amp hour battery bank?

So you'll start recharging at 50% or 562 amp hours remaining.
You'll stop charging at 80% or 900 amp hours remaining.
So, during your charge cycle you're planning on replacing 338 amp hours.

Your charger is 100 amps max, but it really wont put out exactly 100 the whole recharge time, but we'll use that number for calculation sake.

You're looking at a generator run time of 3 hours 20 minutes, minimum. You're really looking at probably more like 4 or 41/2 hours.

If you're expecting 1-2 hours (as in your post) of generator run time, that is not possible.
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Old 05-15-2014, 06:53 AM   #39
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Your charger is 100 amps max, but it really wont put out exactly 100 the whole recharge time,

Agreed , most old small chargers are not capable of creating their rating for many minuets , never mind holding 100A for hours!

My guesstimate is at least 4 hours , probably 5 hours to go from 50% to 80% or 85%.

A SOC meter will tell everything required as this is attempted.

After a couple of weeks of cruising I hope the actual results are posted.

Armchair guesstimates relying on company advertising seldom come true.

Will be interesting to learn the percent of charge that is done by the main engine as the boat travels.
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:23 AM   #40
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Thanks everyone. I've got a better idea of things now, than I had last summer that for sure. I've gone through the power draw calculations again with a cycle time on the fridge and freezer of 12 hours per day. That works out to 120 amp hours per day. Other systems another 60 for a total of 185 amp hours.

The reality is I have a 4.1 kW genny and a 100 amp charger. It seems to run at about 75 plus amps, so that would indicate a genny runtime of 3-4 hours.

Jim
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