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Old 01-07-2017, 06:05 AM   #141
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Again, I don't have the specifics of the Garmin situation to say what I would have done in their situation.

Yep, as I said, I'm just guessing too.... educated, but speculation...

And I haven't intended to sound like bashing the company; decisions gotta be made, and yep, sometimes those decisions put some customers at a disadvantage... but life's gotta go on...

This particular example wouldn't stop me from considering Garmin equipment if we were refitting. OTOH, likelihood of long-term support would be a factor driving my final decision.

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Old 01-07-2017, 06:08 AM   #142
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We update daily.
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We use Transas, but were not aware of the iSailor product until you mentioned it. Going to have to download the app and just see what it does on our next trip. We do use their TX-97 charts. Will be interesting to compare the iTX-97 charts to them.

How do you do daily updates? You mean on Garmin units?

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Old 01-07-2017, 07:15 AM   #143
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We use Transas, but were not aware of the iSailor product until you mentioned it. Going to have to download the app and just see what it does on our next trip. We do use their TX-97 charts. Will be interesting to compare the iTX-97 charts to them.
It's a pretty nice app and they've been pretty good about keeping it updated and adding new features. It's developed in Russia if that matters.

Another second tier app that could easily break through to be a top one is the Nobeltec/MaxSea TimeZero app. I'm pretty sure it is the only tablet app that can view real radar (as opposed to just sharing the screen of a chartplotter). They added direct support for the Furuno DRS4W wireless/WiFi radar. So an iPad with the DRS4W would make a complete backup solution with very little installation headache.

As with all "free" iOS/Android apps, you can't look at the star ratings, especially when they have fewer than 100 reviews. All of the apps in this genre are free - you pay in-app to get charts and extra features. So the barrier for a competitor to write a negative review is very low. Or worse, a lot of people download the free app and find that you actually have to pay for charts (surprise!) and then give it a negative review because they felt everything should be free.
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:22 PM   #144
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I am at the same place as you were Bruce B. I need a complete system and am now down to Garmin and Furuno. I waited for the Chicago Boat Show to see the equipment. Garmin was there and asked a local retailer to quote me a show special. Furuno was NOT there, in fact I could not find a Furuno demo unit of any kind on the floor. Very Disappointed. West Marine doesn't handle Furuno so no way to demo the TZT2 in the Midwest.

That aside, I really like the Furuno DRS4DNXT. The 100 target ARPA overpowers the 10 target manual MARPA of the Fantom 24. Otherwise similar and both Doppler. Garmin has side scan sonar Furuno does not, both have CHIRP. Both have good MFDs. Garmin has a smart pump AP which may edge out Furuno AP.

As far as charts. I like the sat/chart view Furuno has but the upgraded Vision Garmin charts seem feature rich. Both need chart upgrades and are expensive to do the loop/Bahamas and update expense is vague.

The side scan software is in the 7612 software If I want that I have to go Garmin. So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?
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Old 01-15-2017, 07:41 PM   #145
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I am at the same place as you were Bruce B. I need a complete system and am now down to Garmin and Furuno. I waited for the Chicago Boat Show to see the equipment. Garmin was there and asked a local retailer to quote me a show special. Furuno was NOT there, in fact I could not find a Furuno demo unit of any kind on the floor. Very Disappointed. West Marine doesn't handle Furuno so no way to demo the TZT2 in the Midwest.

That aside, I really like the Furuno DRS4DNXT. The 100 target ARPA overpowers the 10 target manual MARPA of the Fantom 24. Otherwise similar and both Doppler. Garmin has side scan sonar Furuno does not, both have CHIRP. Both have good MFDs. Garmin has a smart pump AP which may edge out Furuno AP.

As far as charts. I like the sat/chart view Furuno has but the upgraded Vision Garmin charts seem feature rich. Both need chart upgrades and are expensive to do the loop/Bahamas and update expense is vague.

The side scan software is in the 7612 software If I want that I have to go Garmin. So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?
My best guess is that the radomes are brand specific.
Once Garmin had the Doppler radar in the 24" dome I figured that it was enough. The other feature that the Garmin AP has is the shadow drive. The pilot knows when you grab the helm and disengages. It re engages once you stop turning.
By the way, my installer does not use the smart pump. He uses the same pump supplied by Furuno. He says that they're the best...
Also look for information about the TZT screen delaminating. It is a bit of a problem and it's real.
By the way, the TZT is a much more powerful display than the TZT 2.
Furuno suggested that I wanted the TZT for our application.
I really thought that we would go with Furuno until the last moment.
Have fun shopping!
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Old 01-15-2017, 08:17 PM   #146
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Furuno is one of those odd companies that actually services customers better than they sell.

As to Furuno radar with Garmin, I have no idea whether you can or not, but I wouldn't recommend it when Garmin's radar is very good. Now, we do use Furuno radar with Transas with no problems.
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Old 01-15-2017, 09:13 PM   #147
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I just installed to Garman 8212s that I bought last fall for $1230 each. I just learned that by using Garman blue charts on my iPad I can transfer routes in waypoint seamlessly via Wi-Fi to my chart plotter's. This means my wife and I can take her iPad to go bar or to dinner plan The next days journey and transfer it to the plotter when we arrive at the boat. I think this is a pretty cool app.

Likewise using Garmin Helm I can walk around the boat and look at either chart plotter. I am using a ray marine auto pilot and it works well with the Garman equipment.

I have had both Ray Marine and Garman systems, and frankly don't see much difference between the two. I can tell you, that getting a hold of Ray Marine customer service can be an exasperating experience. I have been on hold for half hour, or 45 minutes, just to be disconnected before actually talking to a person. Their message that they will call us back never seems to work with me. Garman, on the other hand has never made me wait more than two or three minutes before finding a knowledgeable customer service rep on the other end.

I am ofen amused when people tell me that this technician or the technician recommends a particular system. I never know what that is based upon. It is not unusual to have a technician install a system, and never see it again. Even if it breaks the owner may be likely to hire another technician to repair it. So technicians may be able to tell you about ease of install but I doubt they they have a significant data base on installs issues and how the issues were resolved. It is all colloquial information. It may be better than no information but it is frustrating that we don't have a good source of quantifiable data upon which to draw.

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Old 01-15-2017, 10:14 PM   #148
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So with all of this said, my question is, if I go with Garmin except for Furuno NXT radar, will the Garmin 7612 handle the NXT or is the radar/ARPA software in the MFD?
The answer is no, I'm afraid. With products like these, radar to MFD, and sonar to MFD are the two features that a locked to a single vendor.

But you could use a furuno MFD for radar and chart plotting, and a small Garmin for sonar. And don't discount the Furuno auto pilot. I've been real happy with the NavPilot 700.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:19 PM   #149
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I am ofen amused when people tell me that this technician or the technician recommends a particular system. I never know what that is based upon. It is not unusual to have a technician install a system, and never see it again. Even if it breaks the owner may be likely to hire another technician to repair it. So technicians may be able to tell you about ease of install but I doubt they they have a significant data base on installs issues and how the issues were resolved. It is all colloquial information. It may be better than no information but it is frustrating that we don't have a good source of quantifiable data upon which to draw.

Gordon
Couldn't agree more. What you are hearing is an assessment of the installation process, how well the company supports the installer/dealer, and how many follow up calls the installer gets from the customer. Easy sales and no hassle installs will rate highly.
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Old 01-15-2017, 11:30 PM   #150
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The technician who only installs telling you what is best is one of many unreliable sources. It's like the mechanic who tells you he sees twice as many of Brand A engines come in with problems as he does of Brand B. Sounds nice until you realize Brand A sells four times as many engines. But it's also like other boaters and TF. Even those of us with the widest experience still can only speak about a minuscule percentage of any brand's installations. We come here for opinions and typically 20 or 30 people respond and it's great information but it's 20 or 30 out of dozens or tens of thousands.

I try to understand where they are coming from by asking "Why do you say that." One came back and said, "Because they take a lot longer to install." I just stared, then said, "why do I care about that?" To him that was a stupid question and it seemed obvious I should, but I didn't intend to keep installing it.
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Old 01-16-2017, 02:24 AM   #151
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I did speak to technicians about the electronics going on our boat.
Although normally I would be doing the installation myself, this time we are hiring the job out as we will be 3000 miles away when we take delivery.
It is one thing to notice a trend in an answer asked of a group, it is entirely another to hear some of heat I heard. To a person, I got the same answer from some very capable, highly respected people. When I say highly respected, I mean by my standards. People who I respect because of their capabilities. I spent a lot of years working with technicians and employing technicians. I feel pretty capable of making that determination...

I think it is overly simplistic to suggest that a tech "install a system and never see it again..." is that what you believe these people do, just install electronics?
For the vast majority of boaters, an electronics technician is the go to whenever there is a problem. Everything from questions about use to "it doesn't work" is routinely handled by these people, day in and day out... They know what companies are supporting a product and on what level. They know what works and they know what breaks.
If the installation is easy and that leads to a successful experience, well, what's wrong with that?

In the end, I want a system that will work well, last and be supported when it has a problem. I don't see that as conflicting with the good electronics installer/seller's goals. If you believe otherwise, I would suggest that you are using the wrong person for your electronics.
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:45 AM   #152
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Bruce,

I dont use people for my electronics. I install everything myself. I am only suggesting that very few electronics break, or dont work as intended. The plotters I just changed on my 14-year-old boat were still working fine, they were just old. These were large raymarine RL plotters. The radar still worked as does the autopilot. Boats 20 - 30 years old are sold everyday with the original electronics that are still working.

I am just saying that electronic technicians do nor deal with a statistically relevant number of issues to have a real knowledge about reliability.

But, i do agree that they can represent a data point. Many of the ETs i know Dont even own a boat, and have little, if any long term experience using a particular system.

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Old 01-16-2017, 07:47 AM   #153
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I just gave a couple of presentations about picking marine electronics for 2020 - how to decide now what to use for the 20's.

Major points:

- Manufacturers want you in their family. They'll often get you there through radar because radar isn't cross-family capable. If you select a radar, you've generally picked the family. For most people/couples, I don't suggest picking the family by radar - use the other criteria below.

- There are 4 big players - Garmin, Navico (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance), Raymarine, Furuno. Although there's no perfect reporting today, sales today (not installed base) has Garmin and Navico as the market leaders with 30+% of the market each.

- For the 20's, pick a family that has a clear iPad strategy and support (all 4 big players do). Make sure to evaluate their iPad products - they'll be incredibly important as every year marches on.

- Make sure you understand the internet and WiFi capabilities of each family. This is another area that will be incredibly important for firmware updates, chart updates, and data synchronization.

- There are 2 good ways to pick a family - 1) decide on the charts you like; 2) decide on the user-interface you like. Often, you should have your wife involved with user-interface decisions. It's a great reason to go to a boat show to actually try the same set of tasks on each family of devices (create a route, activate a MARPA target, turn on the radar, activate/deactivate the autopilot, get AIS details, etc).

- The chart component will likely be the most interesting in the next few years. Garmin has their own charts today and has a large cartography department/floor (I've been to it). Navico just purchased C-Map. Furuno licenses all charts through MapMedia with support for various government charts, C-Map, and Navionics. Raymarine supports C-Map and Navionics with some apparent downgraded NOAA chart support.


There's also the PC route possible with a variety of excellent PC navigation products. For that, you have to decide how you'll have radar support if you want to have radar. An interesting alternative is the Furuno DRS4W which is a wireless radar (once you connect it with DC power) and uses an iPad for the display.

I would expect the iPad to appear in the next couple of years with a variety of more advanced navigation products. Nobeltec/MaxSea Time Zero is a good example - it has routes, radar support, instrument integration, and a whole lot of next generation capabilities.

This is all a fast changing and very interesting market. It's a wonderful time to be involved with it.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:55 AM   #154
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now this makes sense

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Originally Posted by Jeffrey S View Post
I just gave a couple of presentations about picking marine electronics for 2020 - how to decide now what to use for the 20's.

Major points:

- Manufacturers want you in their family. They'll often get you there through radar because radar isn't cross-family capable. If you select a radar, you've generally picked the family. For most people/couples, I don't suggest picking the family by radar - use the other criteria below.

- There are 4 big players - Garmin, Navico (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance), Raymarine, Furuno. Although there's no perfect reporting today, sales today (not installed base) has Garmin and Navico as the market leaders with 30+% of the market each.


- For the 20's, pick a family that has a clear iPad strategy and support (all 4 big players do). Make sure to evaluate their iPad products - they'll be incredibly important as every year marches on.

- Make sure you understand the internet and WiFi capabilities of each family. This is another area that will be incredibly important for firmware updates, chart updates, and data synchronization.

- There are 2 good ways to pick a family - 1) decide on the charts you like; 2) decide on the user-interface you like. Often, you should have your wife involved with user-interface decisions. It's a great reason to go to a boat show to actually try the same set of tasks on each family of devices (create a route, activate a MARPA target, turn on the radar, activate/deactivate the autopilot, get AIS details, etc).

- The chart component will likely be the most interesting in the next few years. Garmin has their own charts today and has a large cartography department/floor (I've been to it). Navico just purchased C-Map. Furuno licenses all charts through MapMedia with support for various government charts, C-Map, and Navionics. Raymarine supports C-Map and Navionics with some apparent downgraded NOAA chart support.


There's also the PC route possible with a variety of excellent PC navigation products. For that, you have to decide how you'll have radar support if you want to have radar. An interesting alternative is the Furuno DRS4W which is a wireless radar (once you connect it with DC power) and uses an iPad for the display.

I would expect the iPad to appear in the next couple of years with a variety of more advanced navigation products. Nobeltec/MaxSea Time Zero is a good example - it has routes, radar support, instrument integration, and a whole lot of next generation capabilities.

This is all a fast changing and very interesting market. It's a wonderful time to be involved with it.
Now this is a make-sense approach to buying electronics.

Gordon
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Old 01-16-2017, 05:57 PM   #155
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Now this is a make-sense approach to buying electronics.

Gordon
Makes sense if you want to be locked into apple product.
Then you'll probable find your next apple device is not comparable with the nav gear without buying yet another apple cable.

At least droids use standard micro USB.
I charger 1 cable across all devices.
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:36 PM   #156
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Simi 60,

I don't much care whether one likes apple or android. I also don't much care if they choose Ray Marine Garman or some other brand. I was merely applauding the criteria by which a selection was being made. I think this is far superior to listening to some technician who may not even have been on a boat other than to install the gear.

Apple and Garman work for me but is not necessarily every one's beer.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:22 PM   #157
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I just gave a couple of presentations about picking marine electronics for 2020 - how to decide now what to use for the 20's.

Major points:

- Manufacturers want you in their family. They'll often get you there through radar because radar isn't cross-family capable. If you select a radar, you've generally picked the family. For most people/couples, I don't suggest picking the family by radar - use the other criteria below.

- There are 4 big players - Garmin, Navico (Simrad, B&G, Lowrance), Raymarine, Furuno. Although there's no perfect reporting today, sales today (not installed base) has Garmin and Navico as the market leaders with 30+% of the market each.

- For the 20's, pick a family that has a clear iPad strategy and support (all 4 big players do). Make sure to evaluate their iPad products - they'll be incredibly important as every year marches on.

- Make sure you understand the internet and WiFi capabilities of each family. This is another area that will be incredibly important for firmware updates, chart updates, and data synchronization.

- There are 2 good ways to pick a family - 1) decide on the charts you like; 2) decide on the user-interface you like. Often, you should have your wife involved with user-interface decisions. It's a great reason to go to a boat show to actually try the same set of tasks on each family of devices (create a route, activate a MARPA target, turn on the radar, activate/deactivate the autopilot, get AIS details, etc).

- The chart component will likely be the most interesting in the next few years. Garmin has their own charts today and has a large cartography department/floor (I've been to it). Navico just purchased C-Map. Furuno licenses all charts through MapMedia with support for various government charts, C-Map, and Navionics. Raymarine supports C-Map and Navionics with some apparent downgraded NOAA chart support.


There's also the PC route possible with a variety of excellent PC navigation products. For that, you have to decide how you'll have radar support if you want to have radar. An interesting alternative is the Furuno DRS4W which is a wireless radar (once you connect it with DC power) and uses an iPad for the display.

I would expect the iPad to appear in the next couple of years with a variety of more advanced navigation products. Nobeltec/MaxSea Time Zero is a good example - it has routes, radar support, instrument integration, and a whole lot of next generation capabilities.

This is all a fast changing and very interesting market. It's a wonderful time to be involved with it.
I think that's good advice for people who boat like you do, which admittedly is a lot of people - perhaps even most. But for others the priorities and goals can be different.

I love the internet and would like to be connected all the time. I get twitchy when I'm not. But a lot of our cruising has us out of internet range, often for weeks at a time. To keep the twitching to a minimum, I use satellite internet just to send/receive email. The point is that I expressly do not want my navigation gear on the internet or wireless unless I have some explicit update to perform.

I also value reliability, and that translates into, among other things, tightly controlled updates on all nav equipment. This is another reason for them to be disconnected unless there is a specific task to perform.

I also have almost zero interest in using my ipad for navigation, again because of reliability. I can't sit in the cockpit and monitor fuel fill levels while tanking-up because the wifi connection is not robust enough. And I can't do similarly in the engine room because the wifi craps out as soon as I enter the room. And I have to reboot the wifi base station every few days because it gets all tangled up in it's own shorts. I have yet to meet a consumer wifi station or router that doesn't do the same. Now a lot of this is attributable to being on a bigger boat, but that's really my point - different situations beget different requirements and priorities. But in my case, I would place zero priority on a vendors iPad (or android or whatever) strategy when selecting products.

The result is that my priorities are nearly opposite what you have outlined. I'm not saying your priorities are wrong. They just aren't the only priorities. What's important is that each person be clear on what theirs are, and your list is great to get that thought process going.

Looking back at the priorities you listed, and to provide some contrast....

- I know vendors want me in their "family", but I would rather minimize vendor lock-in.

- I don't care about their ipad strategy - I have no plans to use it.

- I don't care about their wifi or internet or cloud strategy. I do want to be able to update charts easily, and would evaluate that. But I'm OK with transferring data via USB stick or SD card if that's what's required.

- Charts definitely matter with respect to the chart plotter, but in different ways to different people. I know lots of people who only care about bottom charts because they love to fish. I happen to care about world coverage. Neither is right or wrong, but they certainly are different.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:48 PM   #158
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Greetings,
Mr. JS. NOW you're scaring me. I have no doubt the changes/advances you note are coming. In spite of the fact I can post on TF and get messages from my desk answering machine and even record a new message I'm afraid even now I'm so very far behind the electronic 8-ball that I'll be back to a sextant and and an Amoco road map for navigation purposes by 2020. Given the hourly (seems like) advances in navigational equipment and my early onset Dementia (not kidding) I'm going to be literally lost not too far in the future.
We currently have a very dated Garmin GPS/sonar on board and I only use the chart plotter and the sonar readings. The other, what appear to be dozens of, "features" are unused.
I suspect our Furuno radar is on it's last legs and I dread shopping for a new unit of any brand due to information overload. I hope our Wood Freeman auto pilot lasts as long as I do.
This is NOT a joke post. My concern is real.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:48 PM   #159
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I love the internet and would like to be connected all the time.
The presentation was about marine electronics in 2020 and beyond. An obvious capability that is coming is continually-connected high speed internet from anywhere.


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I also value reliability, and that translates into, among other things, tightly controlled updates on all nav equipment. This is another reason for them to be disconnected unless there is a specific task to perform.
Apple proved that simple updates allow people to have more reliability. I find it funny that some people have PC's onboard and refuse to go online with them for various fears.

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I can't sit in the cockpit and monitor fuel fill levels while tanking-up because the wifi connection is not robust enough.
That's a trivial problem to fix. Remember that my boat is steel and has 10 times the signal blocking that yours has. There are hundreds of devices designed to extend WiFi networks so you can have all the connection you'd want under your engine if desired.


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I would place zero priority on a vendors iPad (or android or whatever) strategy when selecting products.
Again, my presentation was all about the upcoming 20's. The iPad is going to be a significant factor in all marine electronics in that era.

There's also a theme that the people buying/upgrading their electronics for the 20's aren't going to be the people who are 60 today. It'll be the people who are 40 today. Their internet expectations and openness will be significantly different from many of the people here. It doesn't make your feelings about it wrong. It just makes them a small percentage that frankly, doesn't matter for the industry.
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Old 01-16-2017, 07:50 PM   #160
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But in my case, I would place zero priority on a vendors iPad (or android or whatever) strategy when selecting products.

The result is that my priorities are nearly opposite what you have outlined. I'm not saying your priorities are wrong. They just aren't the only priorities. What's important is that each person be clear on what theirs are, and your list is great to get that thought process going.

Looking back at the priorities you listed, and to provide some contrast....

- I know vendors want me in their "family", but I would rather minimize vendor lock-in.

- I don't care about their ipad strategy - I have no plans to use it.

- I don't care about their wifi or internet or cloud strategy. I do want to be able to update charts easily, and would evaluate that. But I'm OK with transferring data via USB stick or SD card if that's what's required.

- Charts definitely matter with respect to the chart plotter, but in different ways to different people. I know lots of people who only care about bottom charts because they love to fish. I happen to care about world coverage. Neither is right or wrong, but they certainly are different.
What he said ^^^
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