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Old 05-07-2012, 01:20 AM   #21
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I just went through a lot of my charts and am surprised how many I've got. I've got most of our route picked out and Chris and I talked about it. We will be going west of Pitt Is and Campania Is and east of Aristazabal Is. We'll be running Principe Channel, Estevan Sound and Larado Channel. Plan to spend some time SW of Bella Bella in the Hakai Marine Rec Area and Fjordland too. Would like to do a bit of Willard Inlet and Winter Inlet east of Dixon Entrance.
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Old 05-07-2012, 03:13 AM   #22
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I just downloaded a chart app for the iPad that is absolutely perfect for what we wanted. I looked at Navionics and while it is an impressive program it does more than we need and it costs more than we want to pay for charts-on-a-screen, which is all we want.

But in searching around the app store I came across Navimatics Charts & Tides. Half the price of the Navionics package and in messing around with it this evening it seems absolutely perfect for what we want. Excellent vector charts--- you can zoom from an area covering hundreds of miles on the US/BC/Alaska coast into a single, tiny bay with one finger pinch, all the NOAA/Canadian Hydrographic data is there, there are active tide and current charts, and so on. It ties into Active Captain if you use that (we don't). It is fully functional with no need to be on-line, either WiFi or 3/4G.

You can navigate a boat with it although we do not ever anticipate doing so. I suspect that Navionics' navigation functions are more comprehensive, more flexible, and perhaps more user friendly. But navigation is not what we want out of an iPad app. We only want the charts, tides, and currents and an easy way to manipulate them. And the Navimatics application seems to do these things perfectly.

Another nice thing about the Navimatics is that the same app works on both the iPad and iPhone. So you buy it once and can use it on both platforms if you have them. However it is tailored for the differences in both platforms. So using the app on an iPad is not just blowing an iPhone app up on the screen with the subsequent resolution loss. The Navimatics app coding contains whatever is necessary to make the display full screen at maximum resolution on both platforms. The user interfaces are a bit different; on an iPhone the interface is tailored for the smaller screen.

So it's perfect for what we want to do and at $25 the price is right, too. There are several versions of the app covering different areas. For people in the PNW who also go into BC the one to get is the US & Canada West Coast version. This covers from the US-Mexico border all the way up to and including the entire state of Alaska including the Aleutians.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:06 AM   #23
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Ther is also a fantastic guide to the Inside Passage that commercial fishermen used to use. It was complete with drawings of what bays and headlands and channels look like. This book went out of print many years ago and used copies sold for many hundreds of dollars if you could even find someone willing to part with their copy. The book recently went back into print. It is not cheap but it's
apparently worth every penny if one is taking a trip like this, particularly of the first time. The only place I've seen it is at Captains Nautical Supply in Seattle. If I can find the title I'll post it here.
It was the "Hansen Handook", actual title "Hand Book (Handbook) for Puget Sound, Southeastern and Southwestern Alaska : Tacoma to Anchorage and Kodiak Via Inside Passage". There was an update with the title "Captain Farwell's Handbook for piloting the Puget Sound area, British Columbia, Southeastern Alaska, Southwestern Alaska : Tacoma to Anchorage and Kodiak Via Inside Passage". Sea Ocean Books has one of the Farwell editions for $135. I had a copy years ago and sold it - while it was an interesting curiosity its usefulness has probably passed.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #24
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If you primarily want charts for backup you might watch PNW Craigslist for folks selling batches of charts. It's more common at the end of the season, but you can pick up a complete collection (obviously not kept current) for several hundred dollars.

Also, while it's intended for kayakers, this page looks like a pretty comprehensive resources:
http://sites.google.com/site/insidepassageregistry/
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:26 AM   #25
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Marin

Is the Navimatics tides and charts package for both the PNW US and Canada a stand alone App?
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:35 AM   #26
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Ny son had a Navionics App for his Android pad unit that seemed to work really well. He set next to the Furuno units fotr almost the whole inside passage trip, and it was dead on.

I was impressed to say the least. He paid something like $50 for the thing.

I've got over $10K in my Navnet system.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:39 AM   #27
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Right you are, except....
Here is the Canadian rule. I am sure the US rule is similar.
fron the "Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations" to the Canada Shipping Act
  • 4. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.
  • (2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
    • (a) the location and character of charted
      • (i) shipping routes,
      • (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
      • (iii) navigational hazards; and
    • (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
  • (3) If a ship, other than a pleasure craft of less than 150 tons, is making a foreign voyage, a home-trade voyage, Class I, II or III, or an inland voyage, Class I, the master and the owner of the ship shall have on board and make readily available to the person in charge of the navigation of the ship an illustrated table of life-saving signals for use by ships and persons in distress when communicating with life-saving stations, maritime rescue units or aircraft engaged in search and rescue operations.
  • etc.....
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:47 AM   #28
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Scary:

Right you are, except....
Here is the Canadian rule. I am sure the US rule is similar.
fron the "Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations" to the Canada Shipping Act
  • 4. (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.
  • (2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
    • (a) the location and character of charted
      • (i) shipping routes,
      • (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
      • (iii) navigational hazards; and
    • (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
  • (3) If a ship, other than a pleasure craft of less than 150 tons, is making a foreign voyage, a home-trade voyage, Class I, II or III, or an inland voyage, Class I, the master and the owner of the ship shall have on board and make readily available to the person in charge of the navigation of the ship an illustrated table of life-saving signals for use by ships and persons in distress when communicating with life-saving stations, maritime rescue units or aircraft engaged in search and rescue operations.
  • etc.....

Thats interesting.

I do not see anywhere that it says the charts need to be printed on paper.

Electronic documents/charts are still the same chart, they are just viewable on a screen Vs a chart table.

For example at least on my laptop, and chart plotters I have every chart for the inside passage.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:48 AM   #29
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Thats interesting.

I do not see anywhere that it says the charts need to be printed on paper.

Electronic documents/charts are still the same chart, they are just viewable on a screen Vs a chart table.

For example at least on my laptop, and chart plotters I have every chart for the inside passage.
EXCEPT, according to Canadian regulations , please note
Quote
Manufacturers Licenced to Use CHS Chart Data in Value-Added Digital Products

This is a list of manufacturers who have been licensed to use CHS chart data in their digital products.
Digital products created by these manufacturers do not meet the chart carriage requirements of the Charts & Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995 under the Canada Shipping Act.
end quote

The ONLY electronic charts that "meet the chart carriage requirements" allowing you to NOT have to also carry paper charts are the "official' CHS(Canadian Hydrographic Services) charts PAC02 and PAC03 for the west coast.
I do have these and run them (with open cpn) for backup purposes, on separate laptops with their own GPS puck.My main navigation is with Raymarine chartplotters running navionics platinum plus.
I would certainly never advise anyone NOT to carry paper charts (I do) but apparently, it is LEGALLY possible to not have to carry them.
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Old 05-07-2012, 12:02 PM   #30
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Problem with taking the liberal interpretation of the rule....if you are being checked by the CCGA (of which I am a member, trained in CE (courtesty examination)) the only recognized compliance with the "Chart rule" is to have the paper charts. This is not to say your electronic charts are no good, it is the inherent unreliability of the electronics on the boat, that at the critical moment will fail, leaving you with no charts at all. Your paper charts can get burned up in a fire, but short of that, will keep on giving you their information through all weather, mechanical failures and electronic failures.

My boat carries CHS CDs of the entire coast and paper charts of the entire inside passage, as far up as Capre Caution. If I ever stray north of there, I will carry paper charts.

I find planning is more fun when poring over paper charts than peering at my laptop. A larger format is much more effective.
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:14 PM   #31
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Problem with taking the liberal interpretation of the rule....if you are being checked by the CCGA (of which I am a member, trained in CE (courtesty examination)) the only recognized compliance with the "Chart rule" is to have the paper charts. This is not to say your electronic charts are no good, it is the inherent unreliability of the electronics on the boat, that at the critical moment will fail, leaving you with no charts at all. Your paper charts can get burned up in a fire, but short of that, will keep on giving you their information through all weather, mechanical failures and electronic failures.

My boat carries CHS CDs of the entire coast and paper charts of the entire inside passage, as far up as Capre Caution. If I ever stray north of there, I will carry paper charts.

I find planning is more fun when poring over paper charts than peering at my laptop. A larger format is much more effective.
I am in full agreement with the idea of carrying paper charts and I do carry them.
However I am still confused over the "liberal interpretation' versus the "legal interpretation' of the rules.
Is there a legal penalty for NOT carrying paper charts if you have the CHS CD's and two separate means of displaying them?
Bob
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Old 05-07-2012, 01:42 PM   #32
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Marin

Is the Navimatics tides and charts package for both the PNW US and Canada a stand alone App?
Not sure how you define stand-alone, but it is a complete app that includes all the charts from the US-Mexico border up to and including the entire state of Alaska. Oh, it also includes Hawaii. I includes all the tide and current tables--- tap on the T or C icon on the chart and you immediately get the table for that day. You can scroll back and forth on the table to get a specific time and you can roll the selector wheels to get whatever month, day, and year you want.

You can scroll with your finger all the way from the bottom to the top of the charts--- they connect seamlessly. The outlines of the charts that are in your field of view on the display are shown as red boxes. But scrolling, zooming in and out, or rotating the display around is completely seamless. You can also put the display in North up or "free" which lets you rotate the charts around however you want. The charts are vector charts, not raster charts. So rotating a chart does not rotate the names, etc. on the chart.

Like a full-up plotter, you can tap on a navaid or other feature and you will get the information about that feature. The app uses all the symbols, terms, and definitions used in Chart 1.

You can put in a waypoint and you can navigate to it but so far as I've been able to determine reading the user guide you cannot make or store routes. You can store waypoints and call them up from a bookmark menu and navigate to one from your current position. But it doesn't look like you can string waypoints together in to a route.

It has what they call an HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator) that looks very much like the one you'd have in an airplane. So if you put in or select a stored waypoint and navigate to it, you can call up the HSI which will be overlaid on the screen and this shows you your track, how far off your course line you are, and which way to steer to get back onto your course line.

It also has a "ruler" that lets you put two points on a chart and measure the straight line distance between them as well as get a bearing.

But I would not consider it an equal alternative to the Navionics app which as I understand it is much more of a full-function navigation package. But if your primary interest is in having all the charts in one place on a high-res screen that lets you zoom in and our and move around them at will plus have all the tide and current tables for the stations up and down the coast as well as all the navaid, obstruction, and features information, it's perfect so far as I'm concerned.

You do not need to be online to use the charts or the features like tide and current tables, or navigate to a waypoint, and so on. You DO need to be online to receive the latest updates from Active Captain if you have an Active Captain account. But once the current Active Captain info is downloaded to your iPad, you don't need to be online to view it.

The US & Canada West Coast is a separate app. There are also apps for the US West Coast only, the east coast (US only or US & Canada), the Great Lakes and perhaps others.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:22 PM   #33
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I am in full agreement with the idea of carrying paper charts and I do carry them.
However I am still confused over the "liberal interpretation' versus the "legal interpretation' of the rules.
Is there a legal penalty for NOT carrying paper charts if you have the CHS CD's and two separate means of displaying them?
Bob

I think, reading the post above that quotes the actual law...

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
  • (a) the location and character of charted
    • (i) shipping routes,
    • (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
    • (iii) navigational hazards; and
  • (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
Since we generally do not operate boats over 100 tons, we're good to go. I think electronic charts fully complies with the subset of the law, as I read it.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #34
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I think electronic charts fully complies with the subset of the law, as I read it.
And how would you know that your electronic charts are "the most recent editions of the charts"? And can you update them with the appropriate NOTMAR?

I've been boating in the PNW for more than 30 years and I don't recall hearing about anyone falling afoul of this requirement.

Liquor and guns on the other hand...
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:48 PM   #35
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And how would you know that your electronic charts are "the most recent editions of the charts"? And can you update them with the appropriate NOTMAR?

I've been boating in the PNW for more than 30 years and I don't recall hearing about anyone falling afoul of this requirement.

Liquor and guns on the other hand...

Please read my entire post...

The law dows not indicate that there is ANY need for charts for vessels under 100 tons.

It says that you have to have specific knowlege. It does not indicate the source of that knowlege.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:50 PM   #36
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PS---- Tom--- I just joined Active Captain and downloaded their current data base to the Navimatics app on my iPad. It's fantastic. The ActiveCaptain icons appear on the chart display and tapping them gets you all the information people have entered about that location--- marina facilities, user ratings, navigation hints, etc., etc., etc. You may have already subscribed to Active Captain but this is the first time I've actually seen and used it. Between it and the Navimatics chart application it's the best trip planning-enroute charting and information program I've seen yet.

It's NOT a good active navigation program, but to see the charts, get current and tide information and with Active Captain layered right onto the charts, get tons of user information about where you are boating all on the same screen, it's terrific. Well worth the $25.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:12 PM   #37
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Who get's to determine sufficient knowledge

Is this one of times when your legal until something screws up and attorneys and insurance companies get to make that decision? Since 1995 we've learned to trust and rely on electronic data, I have never heard of anybody losing a boat because their electronic nav gear failed. I have heard of accidents due to cell phone use and probably before long someone with they're head in their electronics and not looking through the wind shield. I too use a pc with all US and Canadian charts, all my trip planning is done on that pc. I have a 22" monitor on my dash and just find it too convenient to plan that way. My chart drawer is jammed with charts, hope they're not all stuck together.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:13 PM   #38
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Carriage of paper charts in Canada

Carriage of paper charts in Canada

Not to beat that dead horse but after a lot of mind numbing reading I think I may finally have wrapped my head around this paper chart question at least to my own satisfaction.
If you are running an official CHS (Canadian Hydrographic Services) ENC (electronic nautical chart) using an ECDIS (Electronic charting and information system) , then as long as you also have an approved back-up ECDIS you do NOT need to carry paper charts.
If, like most of us , you are using either CHS BSB4 Raster charts on a computer based navigation system OR are using, for example, Navionics platinum + in a chartplotter like my Raymarine E120, then you ARE required to carry paper charts.
The raster BSB4 chart CDís for the west coast of Canada cost $525 total while the ENC CDís cost $1200, I have no idea what an approved ECDIS costs but know that my integrated Raymarine MFD system does not qualify.
Maybe the question was only in my own mind but FWIW thatís my take on it.
I have never heard of anybody being cited for NOT having paper charts and have no idea what , if any , penalty may apply.
Bottom line-I think we " mostly" agree that paper charts are a good thing to have aboard.

Bob
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:43 PM   #39
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If you are cheap like me there are second hand/wave marine stores that have many of the guides/charts available for cents on the dollar. For the cost of paper charts, $1000+, it might be cheaper to buy a back up electronic chart program. For paper charts I like the large area charts to give a general idea and the electronic charts for closure detail.

Gee I remember the days of Loran and we plotted by hand our location, and we use a COMPASS, and depth sounder. I bought a hand help Garmin GPS and electronic charts, Chart Pro, 15+ years ago, and they still work. The recovery time was 30+ seconds and accuracy with in a 50 yard, which I thought was fantastic. Also Radar can be a good back up if you can see/use the coast line which gives you good idea.

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Old 05-07-2012, 06:05 PM   #40
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I use to teach navigation and boat handling. Always used charts and was skeptical about digital versions. At least until I purchased our first Chartplotter two years ago. Now I must admit that I pay little attention to the paper ones. I have my laptop and my Garmin up and running at all times. So I have redundancy. I also carry the chart books. These are good reference when you want to check out an area or some of the notes without disturbing your plotters.
Having said that, I believe that one should at least carry a chart book, with water proof charts for the areas that you plan to operate. Worst case, you have to abandon ship and this will be the only thing you have in your tender or if you end up on shore. Plus the books are very easy to grab as you go out the door.
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