Broad Brush Statement I Heard

[Tom.B]

So I was watching a YouTube channel the other night and the "Tuber" made a bit of a broad statement that I wanted to run past you guys for discussion. In a nutshell, he said there are basically three companies supplying comprehensive electronics packages for boats. He didn't like Raymarine because it lacked some of the features he wanted (he is a sailboat owner) and that Garmin tends to just find products that work and just buy them... like Navionics... and AC. Moreover, he hasn't been super impressed with their customer service. He continued by saying that Lowrance is geared to the smaller, center-console fishing community and SimRad caters more toward larger powerboats. So as a sailor, he went with B&G since they specifically tailor to sailboats (and yes... Lowrance, SimRad, and B&G all have the same parent company, Navico).

Now, please don't shoot the messenger here, however, I AM interested in the validity of any or all of a statement like this. I will be in the market (MAYBE) in a year or so to completely re-vamp out electronics. I have not even started researching, but thought running a broad-brush statement through the TF wringer may be fun. Maybe...

 

[Woodland Hills]

Where does Furuno fit into that picture?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Pretty happy with my Raymarine products. It does seem that after about 2 years, regardless of brand, the unit you bought is now obsolete in some form or another.

I have a C97 and the only "new" unit that would talk to it was an es127. Then Raymarine came out with the Axiom and new Lighthouse III programming. The LH III won't even talk to the C97.

 

[AdmiralS]

I agree with Woodland. Furuno is the 4th. Outside of that, its basically the market. Northstar is pretty much out, and TimeZero has its own requirements.

We will be doing a complete electronics package on our new Helmsman in the next month or so. I am an IT person by trade, so technology flows in my veins. I also do most of the electronics installs and refits at our boat club for the members so consider myself quite knowledgeable across the different manufacturers and their products dating back to the early 2000's.

Raymarine may be re-inventing themselves with Axiom and LightHouse, but the mental trauma they have caused me from the past C & E Series immediately crosses them off the list from ever being a contender. I have nightmares of SeaTalk, SeaTalkNG, 0183, 2000 swirling around my head at night...

I like Furuno, but it is definitely geared towards Commercial and Serious cruising. Lacks a lot of the bells and whistles included by the other vendors.

B&G is definitely geared towards the sailing market and is mostly the same hardware as the SimRad kit.

Our previous boat was Garmin, with all the bells and whistles and we did love it.

I really really wanted to love SimRad, as we really liked the user interface and the look and feel of the equipment, but it fell short in a number of areas -

1. Cameras are limited to only the display it is connected to
2. The smaller GO panels lack networking so cannot consume Radar/Sonar or cameras from the other MFDS
3. Auto routing is still rather basic with sharp turns when computed
4. Now that Garmin bought Navionics, they are pushing CMAP

We will be proceeding with Garmin kit for our new Helmsman as it solves the shortcomings of SimRad above. BlueCharts g3 is now built with Navionics so we will have the best of Navionics and Active Captain data.

 

[Tomas]

Fifteen years ago a sailboat friend referred to his B&G instruments as "broke and gone". His auto pilot spent more time in transit for repair than on his boat. Hopefully they have become more reliable.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Well, Mr. Sailboat sort of lost his credibility by not even mentioning Furuno and that's without his omission of Timezero and others, but it seems to me it's a sailor who just feels this inner desire like a disease to be different and that meant going away from the mainstream.

Now, with electronics, that seems sort of unwise. Isn't it smarter to be with the ones with more complete offerings and more products and more customers unless they're really really really really bad bad bad.

We're Furuno and Transas and Timezero fans but out last boat we bought Garmin as they offered Garmin, Raymarine, or Simrad. Garmin is so simple to go with as they have it all and it worked fine and we had no complaints. We were prepared if we didn't like it to rip it out (not literally, remove it with care) and replace with Furuno. I don't like Raymarine but they'd be my next choice and then even Simrad before B&G. With technology there's a big advantage to staying mainstream. Something goes wrong and thousands will be screaming rather than a few who are easily ignored. I'm staying mainstream.

 

[NightCrawler]

We outfitted Shangri-La with all new Garmin in 2016. Took some getting used to all the techie features - but their customer service and the installer have been just great answering our questions. Very happy. MFD's, sonar and radar.

 

[BandB]

MFD's, sonar and radar.

Wifey B: To go with the bluebirds and fountains.

 

[Wayfarer]

I watched that episode too! I don't have experience with many of the aforementioned companies, but I have worked with Furuno pretty extensively at work. I've had very little issue with any of their equipment over the last 12 years. Like BandB said, it's not as flashy, but I'll take simple and reliable 100 times out of 99 anyway.

 

[O C Diver]

Have 20 year old Furuno on my charter boat. Rock solid, and designed for people who put more that 250 hours per year on their engine.

Have probably 8 year old Garmin on my trawler. Extremely happy with it and hope the next electronics upgrade is the next owners quandary.

Sadly, past performance of a manufacturer's electronics is not necessarily a guarantee of future products performance.

Ted

 

[Airstream345]

We went through the process of upgrading our electronics "kit" last season and formed a similar opinion about these vendors. We did not consider Furuno as we categorized it as "pro" and similarly size solutions came in above our budget.

Overall I found that the big "recreational market" vendors provide very similar features with minimal product differentiation. Some people like the interface on Simrad more than RayMarine or Garmin, others swear by the Simrad AP and build around that. In the end each person will be attracted to a particular brand based on their use cases, value points, budget and equipment already onboard.

In the end we chose Garmin for a few reasons:

1. Integration. Everything works and connects. We were replacing everything and planned to add on in phases so this appealed to us
2. Ease of use, something either of us can use quickly without deep dive RTFM sessions.
3. Budget. We set one for this project that was inline with the boat, our use cases and vessel value (don't over improve). Garmin had various options that fit the bill.
4. Brand. I must admit I had some Garmin brand loyalty from aviation and cycling. I'm also a fan of their technology acquisition strategy to date. It' expands their portfolio and advances the roadmap quickly.

Ultimately I would love to move to PC based electronics. Perhaps on the next boat especially if our use cases define that need.

Finally, I'm hopeful that open protocols for radar and sonar options become a reality in the future. In this case - Furuno currently has the advantage.

 

[Tom.B]

Where does Furuno fit into that picture?

Do they offer full-suite solutions?

 

[Tom.B]

Y'all are missing some of the original premise here. Are the generalizations even remotely accurate? Do Simrads lean toward motoryachts? Do fisherman prefer Lowrance? That kinda thing?

 

[O C Diver]

I doubt any of the named manufacturers' electronics won't do what you want them to do. It's probably more what your priorities are and which manufacturer's version of a feature you like better.

If I were in your situation, I would go to the Miami boat show for several days, play with all the ones you are considering, go to your hotel room, and study the material. Then go back the next day and play some more with the simulators and ask more questions. Then go back to your hotel room and go through it all again. By the third day of the show, you will be ready to shoot yourself or know what you want. You may think I crazy for suggesting the above, but consider how much you're going to invest in time and money to buy new electronics. Finally, have a few pictures of your boat, helm station and flybridge along with area dimensions for displays. Let the manufacturer's representatives see your serious.

Ted

 

[tiltrider1]

To answer the original question. There is a grain of truth in his statement. However the grain is small. Yes Garmin of late has bought some companies but in truth they pushed the market to innovate. Their purchase of navionics had nothing to do with the marine market. It had everything to do with aviation and they have absolutely revolutionized the aviation market.

In the 90’s B & G was the best thing for racing sail boats. No one else was close, then they all but died. So is B&G back or is just a different interface to the Lorwance equipment. Simrad bought up Robertson and their auto pilots were increadable for power boats but their integration, until recently was way behind the others.

Raytheon came out with LCD radar displays in the early 90’s and for the money no one could touch them. Their early chart plotters were crude but they were ahead of the others. The whole thing was spun off into Raymarine and and the integration was amazing, you could connect a autohelm AP (1980’s)to a E90W (2000’s)to an A68 with depth (2010’s) and they would all talk, but then Raymarine really lost their way.

There are just to many other issues to putting any credence in that old grain of truth. Right now there is an all out war going between Garmin, LowranceSimradB&G and FlirRaymarine. Ask me after the Seattle boat show and i’ll Let youn know who is on top this week.

I’m not ignoring Furuno. There is a reason why it’s the only thing the fishing fleet will buy.

 

[LaBomba]

We had Lowrance on our last boat and on our new purchase this year we needed to upgrade all of the electronics. I went and spent a number of hours at the largest electronics store in our area. One statement the saleperson made was that Lowrance seems to be best suited and purchased by fisherman and stated a few reasons, that I have forgotten (surprise). In the end we chose Garmin as it seemed to have a full lineup that networked very easily, plug and play as they say. I have all but the autopilot working and that is in process. Works good so far and it was extremely easy to install.

 

[Insequent]

Furuno own 50% of Time Zero, so there is seamless integration.

You can run a PC with the convenience of a mouse, and have a Furuno radar overlaid on the charts of the PC, or split screen on a 24" monitor (which I love), fully integrated Furuno NavPilot (autopilot) managed via the mouse. I have a Furuno chartplotter on the flybridge as part of the networked system, but if starting again I would try and find a daylight-viewable & waterproof monitor instead. Probably a lot cheaper than the Furuno touch screens.

 

[FF]

The commercials I have been on try to get the LAST version of Furuno , rather than the latest and greatest.

Seem to serve then well both on price and reliability.

 

[caltexflanc]

Do they offer full-suite solutions?

They offer the fullest suite of solutions and options of them all.

The thing that really made me a Furuno fanboy was their outstanding customer service on equipment well out of warranty.

All that said, there are also the more specialized vendors of equipment, such as ComNav, JRC, Standard Horizon, Icom, Vesper et al. that integrate easily into the major suites, often at better cost and superior perfomance.

By the way I think we left Sitex off the list, who often has good economy solutions and offers "suites" as well.

 

[Codger2]

I will be in the market (MAYBE) in a year or so to completely re-vamp out electronics. I have not even started researching, but thought running a broad-brush statement through the TF wringer may be fun.

I have spent countless hours at WM playing with all the systems you've named. (and more) They all pretty much display the info a cruiser would ever want or need. So what was my reason for choosing a Raymarine suite? Their systems were the most intuitive. IMHO.

Having played with just about everything out there, I found Furuno to be the least intuitive. (MHO)

Also, although Raymarine was not the least expensive, it has a lot of "bang for the buck" and delivered anything I wanted to know.

 

[Seevee]

To answer the original question. There is a grain of truth in his statement. However the grain is small. Yes Garmin of late has bought some companies but in truth they pushed the market to innovate. Their purchase of navionics had nothing to do with the marine market. It had everything to do with aviation and they have absolutely revolutionized the aviation market.

In the 90’s B & G was the best thing for racing sail boats. No one else was close, then they all but died. So is B&G back or is just a different interface to the Lorwance equipment. Simrad bought up Robertson and their auto pilots were increadable for power boats but their integration, until recently was way behind the others.

Raytheon came out with LCD radar displays in the early 90’s and for the money no one could touch them. Their early chart plotters were crude but they were ahead of the others. The whole thing was spun off into Raymarine and and the integration was amazing, you could connect a autohelm AP (1980’s)to a E90W (2000’s)to an A68 with depth (2010’s) and they would all talk, but then Raymarine really lost their way.

There are just to many other issues to putting any credence in that old grain of truth. Right now there is an all out war going between Garmin, LowranceSimradB&G and FlirRaymarine. Ask me after the Seattle boat show and i’ll Let youn know who is on top this week.

I’m not ignoring Furuno. There is a reason why it’s the only thing the fishing fleet will buy.

Tiltrider,

Don't see what Navionics has to do with aviation, and Garmins purchase sure seems like a marine thing. Last time I checked most airplanes are only good for one water landing......

But, yes, Garmin has certainly revolutionized the aviation market with great products and service. Every time I've deviated to a competitor for my plane, I've been sorely disappointed ...... Avidyne, Auricle, Aspen, to name a few, don't come close to the quality and service of Garmin.

As for the marine market, my last install was SimRad, and that has worked out "reasonably", but the support is far inferior to Garmin. I still have Garmin on boat no. 2, one old and one newer and support is stellar.

 

[Seevee]

I agree with Woodland. Furuno is the 4th. Outside of that, its basically the market. Northstar is pretty much out, and TimeZero has its own requirements.

We will be doing a complete electronics package on our new Helmsman in the next month or so. I am an IT person by trade, so technology flows in my veins. I also do most of the electronics installs and refits at our boat club for the members so consider myself quite knowledgeable across the different manufacturers and their products dating back to the early 2000's.

Raymarine may be re-inventing themselves with Axiom and LightHouse, but the mental trauma they have caused me from the past C & E Series immediately crosses them off the list from ever being a contender. I have nightmares of SeaTalk, SeaTalkNG, 0183, 2000 swirling around my head at night...

I like Furuno, but it is definitely geared towards Commercial and Serious cruising. Lacks a lot of the bells and whistles included by the other vendors.

B&G is definitely geared towards the sailing market and is mostly the same hardware as the SimRad kit.

Our previous boat was Garmin, with all the bells and whistles and we did love it.

I really really wanted to love SimRad, as we really liked the user interface and the look and feel of the equipment, but it fell short in a number of areas -

1. Cameras are limited to only the display it is connected to
2. The smaller GO panels lack networking so cannot consume Radar/Sonar or cameras from the other MFDS
3. Auto routing is still rather basic with sharp turns when computed
4. Now that Garmin bought Navionics, they are pushing CMAP

We will be proceeding with Garmin kit for our new Helmsman as it solves the shortcomings of SimRad above. BlueCharts g3 is now built with Navionics so we will have the best of Navionics and Active Captain data.

AdmiralS,

FWIW, I fell you'll be happy with your new Garmin, especially after the Navionics integration.

Last year I did a Simrad package and it definitely had a few features that Garmin was sorely lacking. First was the Navionics charts, update much more often and better info. Second was the ability to enlarge the characters on the chart so one can read them. Even with 20/20 not corrected, I have trouble reading the Garmin plotters, especially depth. And Third, Simrad has a plotter that can be touch screen and/or knobs and I love that feature.

Now, Garmin support is WAY superior to Simrad and I miss that. Some of the Simrad support team are so stupid they should be shot and hung out to dry, and I think I've talked to all of them.

I've written to them time and time again, but haven't seen much improvement other than the Navionics purchases. However, they usually do come up with pretty good improvements.

Keep us posted on your install.

 

[Ventana]

I understand that generalizations usually get you general answers, but from a users standpoint generalizations are worthless, and you need to do your homework to get specific, personalized information. In other words, what is perfect for you is meaningless for just about everyone else.
Go to a boatshow, play with all the toys and see what you like. I can not stress enough that electronics that are easy for you to understand and intuitive to operate will be the correct choice for you, regardless of brand. With a bit of work you can get most brands to play well together so there is little reason to go with a "package" if you don't want to. Mix and match what you need, most of the major names have good and bad traits depending on what you want. It isn't that Lowrance products are made for fisherman, that Furuno is made for commercial vessels, or that B&G is made for sailboats, that is who they are marketed to and good marketing works. All of them work equally well in any application if they provide the information you need.

I have been a certified installer and reseller for pretty much every brand of marine electronics, and have done thousands of installs over the years. I have a lot of favorites, but not a favorite brand.

 

[caltexflanc]

I have spent countless hours at WM playing with all the systems you've named. (and more) They all pretty much display the info a cruiser would ever want or need. So what was my reason for choosing a Raymarine suite? Their systems were the most intuitive. IMHO.

Having played with just about everything out there, I found Furuno to be the least intuitive. (MHO)

Also, although Raymarine was not the least expensive, it has a lot of "bang for the buck" and delivered anything I wanted to know.

That's interesting, I've never seen Furuno at West Marine and to my knowledge they haven't carried it in years. When and where was this?

Your MHO tags are appropriate, because I will agree that what is "intuitive" is a pretty personal thing. For instance i have never found the various Apple products we've owned (computers and phones) to be the least bit intuitive, but fans of Apple say they do.

 

[twistedtree]

For every complex problem there is a simple answer..... and it's wrong...


There are elements of truth in your friends broad brush statements, but an equal amount that is wrong or missing. Furuno, for example, who are the biggest in the industry, yet more focused on commercial, are not even in the list. But they have a consumer line that is as complete and integrated as others, if that's what you want.


I think you just need to spend time with all of them, or work with an installer who you trust. Different people "bond" with how different systems operate. Some people find Garmin's single-source charts preferable, where others find it a non-starters. In some areas Navionics is good and C-map will run you aground. And vice versa in other areas. Different system use different charts, so it can be a big factor in system selection.


And while we are throwing around generalizations, here's one to consider.


If you want Consumer Electronics on your boat, buy Garmin, Simrad/B&G/Lowrence, or Raymarine. By "Consumer Electronics" I mean products that have the latest gadgets and features, work with your phone, socialize, etc. They also need to be updated frequently, things don't always work, and advice like "turn it off an back on again" will solve many problems. Plus product life cycle will be about 3 years start to finish. In a year there will be a newer, better version of what you have, and withing 3 years your product will be obsolete and no longer repairable.


If you want Navigation Equipment on your boat, buy Furuno. By "Navigation Equipment" I mean products that have all the required navigation features, are rock solid in operation, but are slow to have newer features. The product life cycle will be 5-10 years, and you will still have a good shot at repairs on 15-20 year old equipment. It will all "just work" day in an day out.

 

[Woodland Hills]

For every complex problem there is a simple answer..... and it's wrong...


There are elements of truth in your friends broad brush statements, but an equal amount that is wrong or missing. Furuno, for example, who are the biggest in the industry, yet more focused on commercial, are not even in the list. But they have a consumer line that is as complete and integrated as others, if that's what you want.


I think you just need to spend time with all of them, or work with an installer who you trust. Different people "bond" with how different systems operate. Some people find Garmin's single-source charts preferable, where others find it a non-starters. In some areas Navionics is good and C-map will run you aground. And vice versa in other areas. Different system use different charts, so it can be a big factor in system selection.


And while we are throwing around generalizations, here's one to consider.


If you want Consumer Electronics on your boat, buy Garmin, Simrad/B&G/Lowrence, or Raymarine. By "Consumer Electronics" I mean products that have the latest gadgets and features, work with your phone, socialize, etc. They also need to be updated frequently, things don't always work, and advice like "turn it off an back on again" will solve many problems. Plus product life cycle will be about 3 years start to finish. In a year there will be a newer, better version of what you have, and withing 3 years your product will be obsolete and no longer repairable.


If you want Navigation Equipment on your boat, buy Furuno. By "Navigation Equipment" I mean products that have all the required navigation features, are rock solid in operation, but are slow to have newer features. The product life cycle will be 5-10 years, and you will still have a good shot at repairs on 15-20 year old equipment. It will all "just work" day in an day out.

This is how I feel about the 2013 Furuno Navnet suite the PO installed on my boat. It worked well enough to be state of the art 5 years ago, it still works now, the charts were just upgraded and I just bought a factory rebuilt 18” display for $500 to replace the small one on the flybridge. I can see at least 10 more years of reliable service, so why not keep it? I will admit that I chose not to repair the Furuno AIS when it recently failed and instead chose to get a Vesper system due to the ability to have the anchor watch on the phone on my nightstand and not in the pilothouse.

It definitely is not intuitive to me and there is a learning curve, but it is well worth making the effort.

 

[tiltrider1]

Tiltrider,

Don't see what Navionics has to do with aviation, and Garmins purchase sure seems like a marine thing. Last time I checked most airplanes are only good for one water landing......

But, yes, Garmin has certainly revolutionized the aviation market with great products and service. Every time I've deviated to a competitor for my plane, I've been sorely disappointed ...... Avidyne, Auricle, Aspen, to name a few, don't come close to the quality and service of Garmin.

As for the marine market, my last install was SimRad, and that has worked out "reasonably", but the support is far inferior to Garmin. I still have Garmin on boat no. 2, one old and one newer and support is stellar.

I am guessing you perceive navionics as charts. Navionics is actually a layering software that loads images and manages the relationship of those images. It’s the software that is of value not the data files.

 

[johnma]

We bought our 2003 boat in 2007. It was built with a fully integrated Furuno package (except auto pilot, that is Simrad) It works extremely well and I'm very happy with it. Their service is also great. Their service rep in Philadelphia helped me with some parts a few years ago that I was afraid were obsolete. He took my small display that had issues and $75.00 later it works like new. That said, the plotters made in 03 require chips for different areas and those chips are no longer made so if i go to an area that i don't have a chip for its like falling off the end of the earth. Last year I purchased a stand alone Garmin plotter that I can easily move from the upper and lower stations as the antenna is built in and just need to be plugged in to a lighter socket.
John

 

[BandB]

Our experience:

Transas. Primarily used by commercial ships. Has functions and features that are incredible and very worthwhile when traveling far offshore. Overkill for anything like coastal cruising. They do build incredible simulators too.

Furuno. Full featured, great support, does anything we want and need. Does lag slightly in new features but when they are released they always work right. Their radar is the best in my experience. Even with Transas, we've used Furuno radar.

Simrad. We very carefully considered it. Have used their autopilot a lot. When we had the choice between it, Raymarine and Garmin, it just didn't match up feature for feature with Garmin.

Garmin. We chose Garmin on the one boat and we were very happy with it. I do think Furuno radar is still better. Service is very good. Garmin is very good if you're looking for everything from one vendor as they sure have it all. One thing too we found out as we had Furuno as backup. Garmin's charts for lakes and rivers are far superior to anyone else's. We had it for the Loop and glad we did.

Timezero. Talked into it. Thought we'd never use it as it wasn't our primary system. Really nice for coastal cruising. Only navigation but for $500 you get two workstations, complete US charts in both raster and vector, and 3D and satellite photos.

Raymarine. We hear things about a renewed effort to provide better service but until it's proved we just won't bite. We love FLIR so certainly that gets our attention. They've made a lot of progress in broadening their offering and trying to extend their appeal. We used Raymarine in school and while it didn't compare to our Furuno we were using at the time, it was older. That is a key factor to in evaluation as the major companies will go back and forth in who has the newest features. I know they've used FLIR's R&D to help them upgrade in many areas but I'm just not fully comfortable yet, so remain not a fan of Raymarine.

I have no experience with any other manufacturers.

 

[FF]

"Go to a boatshow, play with all the toys and see what you like. I can not stress enough that electronics that are easy for you to understand and intuitive to operate will be the correct choice for you, regardless of brand."

The question to me is weather the operation of the device is what is desired ,
or weather the fun of showing off what it should do dockside is the desire.

Folks that want function are willing to read the book , so intuitive means little to someone that actually uses the equipment.