Breaker near the shore side power inlet.

[sdowney717]

Thanks all for your comments and CMS and CharlieJ for describing why a breaker after the shore power inlet is a good idea. I think I will proceed with install the breaker in the near future at the time when the Charles Isolation transformer is installed. Note: I believe the CIT instructions do call for a breaker prior to the CIT.
View attachment 78334

I have just replaced the shore power inlet in the boat with a Smartplug receptacle. The green ground wire was the typical tinned, (8 gauge?) wire, but the black and white wires were untinned copper, with the “strands” being very coarse diameter. These wires are not very flexible. Would these be the so-called welding cables that were used on similar vintage KK42’s? It seems to me that surveyor’s recommendation to replace the service all the way to the panel makes sense in this case.

Question: the easiest option for me would be to locate the breaker box on the other side FRP molded structure where the shore-power inlet is located. Is it acceptable to afix this box with an adhesive such as 4200 or 5200?

Question: the second 30 amp Inlet is of unknown function. It does go the the panels as evidenced by a lit LED, but does not seem to power anything. Is this a provision for a possible air conditioning install?

Jim

I years ago, also put in two 30 amp double pole breakers when replacing my wires, to meet the requirement, but to me it is a dumb idea. Someone comes up with a rule and people don't like breaking rules so they comply.
If you always simply agree without complaint those over you setting policies, then what kind of person are you anyway, someone who goes along to get along.

One rationale for doing this by the promoters here has been to engender fear in the boat owners mind that the dock pedestal breaker is likely defective and will burn his boat to the waterline if he does not do what they say. I don't like this, if the dock shore power has a defect, then the marina fixes it, and if they do not, the most likely failure point is you shore cord and inlets which these extra breakers will not help you at all with,

People are like lemmings with their minds blinded by the experts.
And have little of their own common sense.
And not even going to say another word from here on about this subject.

All regulation changes seem great, but they add on to costs, and may not really make things any better. And since they become written in stone, then the law and insurance issues arise and you have to comply or else, sort of like a policy enslavement, which if you do not comply, God help you cause no one else will, they will be out to get you, make you suffer cause you did not comply with their rules.

 

[dhays]

All regulation changes seem great, but they add on to costs, and may not really make things any better. And since they become written in stone, then the law and insurance issues arise and you have to comply or else, sort of like a policy enslavement, which if you do not comply, God help you cause no one else will, they will be out to get you, make you suffer cause you did not comply with their rules.

As an “expert” in a particular field, I tend to trust “experts” in their fields. Sure, as “experts” we need to be able to articulate and explain the reasons behind our “expert opinions” but when it comes right down to it, I put my faith in the “experts” that I select. For example, I selected a CPA. I expert her to explain her reasons for her recommendations but ultimately I trust her expertise.

You certainly don’t have to play along. If you don’t want to bring your boat into compliance with an insurance companies requirements, find another insurance company. If you can’t find another insurance company that agrees with you, then go uninsured. If you have a lender that requires insurance, then pay for the boat outright. If you can’t afford to pay for the boat outright, then buy a cheaper boat. If you don’t like the cheaper boat, then take up another hobby. You get to choose what you want to do. Of course, the insurance companies, their boards and shareholders get to choose what they wish to do as well.

 

[sdowney717]

As an “expert” in a particular field, I tend to trust “experts” in their fields. Sure, as “experts” we need to be able to articulate and explain the reasons behind our “expert opinions” but when it comes right down to it, I put my faith in the “experts” that I select. For example, I selected a CPA. I expert her to explain her reasons for her recommendations but ultimately I trust her expertise.

You certainly don’t have to play along. If you don’t want to bring your boat into compliance with an insurance companies requirements, find another insurance company. If you can’t find another insurance company that agrees with you, then go uninsured. If you have a lender that requires insurance, then pay for the boat outright. If you can’t afford to pay for the boat outright, then buy a cheaper boat. If you don’t like the cheaper boat, then take up another hobby. You get to choose what you want to do. Of course, the insurance companies, their boards and shareholders get to choose what they wish to do as well.

People just ignore what I said how it wont help all that much as it only protects wires after the breaker, none of you want to admit that for some reason, although some don't like the idea of another failure point introduced into the wire. I put mine in a dry place that can never get rain or splashed by the sea, and in all the years I have had them, I never turn them off. Your greatest risk is the power inlets and shore cord damage, not the wire after the shore power inlets. These extra breakers wont help prevent a shore power inlet from spontaneously combusting when they get loose wires and corroded terminals
.
I also do all my own work, so the marine electrician would starve depending on me.

And look I already violated my pledge not to post again. So I need to go do something else now.

 

[diver dave]

Fire/electrical safety is led by bad examples. Google halligan bar. This is what is used to just find a burning cable behind drywall/paneling. The rules for plug in cord/cable are much less aggressive when they can be pulled out of a receptacle.
In many respects, this length wire from inlet to panel is higher risk. Apparently proven by history.

 

[psneeld]

But like many statistics, if you remove just one factor in a risk group, that particular setup might fall into some much higjer petcentile group for never having a problem.

So yes its a worry in the indistry, but a particular vessel may not have an issue. Blanket rules are fair to everyone but individuals.

 

[stubones99]

Why doesn't Hubbell (or some other company) make a marine power entrance with a built in circuit breaker? I know they make a circuit breaker that Looks like a power entrance but that screw cover simply covers the breaker switch handle.

If it is ABYC to have a breaker within 10', why not 3 inches from the entrance?

Edit: Apparently some do:
http://ecatalog.hubbell-wiring.com/press/pdfs/MLD001.pdf

50A assembly part # is 30-INL2000-50A

30A assembly part # is 30-INL2000-30A

 

[stubones99]

Flush Mount ELCI from SmartPlug

Having absolutely nothing better to do, I went looking and found a few things out.

SmartPlug has a version of their Stainless Steel SmartPlug outdoor bulkhead mount that has a ELCI under the weather door. So, assuming you have space near the cable connector, you could install it and be able to set / reset the ELCI.


PRODUCT GROUP - STAINLESS STEEL / ELCI SENSOR / BREAKERS

ELCI30BRKERSS 30 Amp Breaker - Stainless Mounting Bracket

ELCI50BRKERSS50 Amp Breaker - Stainless Mounting Bracket

 

[CharlieJ]

stubones99
These new products are certainly welcome but I want to make sure that the following details are understood:
1. The shore cord will plug into an inlet, either traditional twist-lock or SmartPlug.
2. The L and N conductors will be routed through the SmartPlug ELCI (made by Sensata) as shown in the bottom photo above.
3. The signal from the ELCI will be the input to the SmartPlug shore power breaker that is shown in the top photo and the left hand photo in the bottom pane.

The key is that there are three components: shore power inlet, an ELCI and a shunt trip type circuit breaker.

 

[Aceman]

I have not read all of the post on this subject and may have all ready been covered but I feel compelled to share with you the following. When I purchased my 1986 Golden Star and had a survey done the insurance company wanted me to rewire the hole vessel. They said that it did not meet ABYC requirements. Well this vessel was manufactured prior to ABYC and does not have to be upgraded to those standards. After a few pictures of the factory wiring that has not been touched and working just fine they backed off. A good analogy would be that the state of California can not make me have my 1957 T-Bird meet smog requirements of 2018 technology. So without rambling I believe your vessel is a 1985 and this was manufactured before ABYC was invented. Now I must admit that the survey that sent out was pretty incompatible of writing a survey. This was based on she said I needed a fuel rail manifold with shut off valves. Had she moved her head inches to the left the stainless steel manifold would have bit her .

 

[CharlieJ]

Aceman Post #9;
ABYC was "invented" on February 1, 1954 and it provides the minimum, consensus based standards for pleasure boat systems.

The Standards have been included by reference in to the Code of Federal Regulations and, for the most part, are homogenized with the European ISO Standards.

 

[Aceman]

I knew I shouldn’t have chimed in. My bad going up against an engineer. Sorry and it won’t happen again

 

[psneeld]

from boats.com on surveys citing standards...

https://www.boats.com/boat-sellers-guide/understanding-boat-surveys/#.W0PyVp8pA0M

"Are there still judgment calls? Certainly. The standards can’t help evaluate the significance of elevated moisture readings in a deck, or the level of wear in belts or hoses. And the toughest calls arise when a surveyor is faced with a system on an older model boat that doesn’t meet standards for boats built today. Is it wrong? Is it inherently dangerous? The answers almost always seem to start with, “It all depends...” "

 

[diver dave]

Luckily, still a free country. One can drive an old car with no emissions controls, hard dash, and not even seatbelts. My first complex aircraft checkout had no shoulder belts.
I can chew on a pound of lard daily on my way to a solo cave dive with only a pony tank.
There may be a time in the future, though, where this is not possible.
Shoot, there's folk out there with knob and tube wiring and pennys for fuses.
It's those pesky insurance companies forcing this change.

 

[psneeld]

According to several members here that have been part of ABYC, they have said there are opening caveats that state absolute compliance sometimes is not practical.

Similar would ne the exveptions in the COLREGS in the annexes.

There is a huge difference between some non compliance to every ABYC recommendations and pennies as fuses.