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Old 02-02-2012, 06:45 PM   #41
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RE: Battery Wire

I gotcha Ron... All their selection seems to be tinned except for only one gauge of welding cable, but I will call them tomorrow and ask. Thanks.
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:32 PM   #42
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RE: Battery Wire

Did you try Hardware Specialties in Seattle?
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:10 PM   #43
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Battery Wire

Nope... But I will. Thanks.
(sorry I missed that earlier)

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 09:11:38 PM
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:58 AM   #44
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Battery Wire

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
I gotcha Ron... All their selection seems to be tinned except for only one gauge of welding cable, but I will call them tomorrow and ask. Thanks.

Are you trying to not use tinned wire for some reason?

You can't go wrong using the approved, tinned, "boat cable".* I can't see you saving enough money with something else unless you have a free source.
*BTW: If you want to keep costs to a minimum, snake a piece of heavy string or light rope wherever the cables will go, mark the ends, pull the string out and measure it.* Add a foot or so for "just in case", and you won't have to buy more than you really need.


-- Edited by rwidman on Friday 3rd of February 2012 08:00:33 AM
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:36 AM   #45
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RE: Battery Wire

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rwidman wrote:You can't go wrong using the approved, tinned, "boat cable".
*Approved By whom? For what use and what standard?

If you reallly mean "approved" as in CG approved then you need to use an IEE cable per 46CFR111.60

Let me know if there is a single boat owned by anyone on this site that uses that cable, or if anyone buys that stuff for their weekend installation work.

By the way, that is what is available at Hardware Specialty in short lengths.

Even the UL approved cable sold as "marine" or "boat cable" only meets UL standards for insulation and the use of stranded conductors. It doesn't have to be tinned and unless I am mistaken, it doesn't have to meet smoke standards - and if "approval" means so much perhaps that standard is one people should pay more attention to.

Be careful tossing around words like "approved."
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:24 AM   #46
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RE: Battery Wire

Allow me to add that the current state of my wiring is NOT "marine grade" and other than the surveyor noting that the lug installation was crappy, he never mentioned that it needed to be tinned wire.

But to answer your question, Ron... Yes, I am definitely trying to avoid tinned wire. Part of it is for the reasons Rick mentioned. Part of it is that it will save me money (although the argument could be made that any savings have been lost in the time spent searching for a good source of non-tinned wire). And still another part is to rage against the machine that is the "marine grade" fallacy. Not EVERYTHING needs to marine grade to work for a boat. It's just an excuse to relieve us of more money.

Tom-
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:32 AM   #47
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RE: Battery Wire

Hooray Gonzo!

I wish more people would stand up for what is right and tell those self-appointed guardians of "standards" they don't even understand to go pound sand and stop ripping off boat owners.

The quality of work and installation is so very much more important in this area than tinned contductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best.

Stop feeding the machine!
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:57 PM   #48
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RE: Battery Wire

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Old 02-03-2012, 02:36 PM   #49
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RE: Battery Wire

"The quality of work and installation is so very much more important ... than tinned conductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best." ... says much more about reality than a cartoon self portrait.

Like I wrote before, Don, if you prefer you can use gold and silver wire labeled as "officially approved special heavy duty salt proof marine boat wire" but if you make garbage connections and do a poor installation it won't perform as well, as safely, or last nearly as long as the cheapest wire installed correctly.

By the way, don't your pointy shoes catch on rocks and bushes?
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:13 PM   #50
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RE: Battery Wire

But if you use tinned wire and do a good job the system will last a lot longer than doing just one or the other. If you use cheap wire than the connections are most critical, solder, adhesive heat shrink and proper crimping and than one may still miss a connection. It's your call. How good are you at making connections? How easy is it to get to the job site? How long are you going to keep the boat? Everything is a trade off--time, money, and aggravation.
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Old 02-03-2012, 03:26 PM   #51
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RE: Battery Wire

"But if you use tinned wire and do a good job the system will last a lot longer than doing just one or the other."

That is a false assertion. If the work is done correctly, the wire will last just as long as tinned wire installed equally well. That is the whole point, do the job right and there is no difference in longevity or any other measure of performance.

The military and commercial maritiie world does not use tinned wire and those critical installations perform very well for longer than most recreational boats even last.

What part of doing a proper installation is so difficult to understand? Why do people believe that tinned wire offers some magic alternative to otherwise unacceptable craftsmanship?
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:38 PM   #52
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RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
RickB wrote:
"The quality of work and installation is so very much more important ... than tinned conductors or a proprietary label that literally means nothing outside the marketing department and only carries weight with recreational boat surveyors who posess dubious qualifications at best." ... says much more about reality than a cartoon self portrait.

Like I wrote before, Don, if you prefer you can use gold and silver wire labeled as "officially approved special heavy duty salt proof marine boat wire" but if you make garbage connections and do a poor installation it won't perform as well, as safely, or last nearly as long as the cheapest wire installed correctly.

By the way, don't your pointy shoes catch on rocks and bushes?
*You don't even know who you're talking to, who is Don? Is your blood pressure so high that you can't even read? My goodness Rick, relax and take a break. Are you so highly strung that you can't help repeating yourself over and over and over? That's not a healthy way to live. You should think about taking a break from the internet and getting your life in order again. Assuming it ever was in order.

Real life says we deal with surveyors and sometimes with surveyors others have hired. What they say sometimes sways the buyer.*Throwing them ingloiously onto the dock off your boat seems a little harsh. Perhaps even affecting a sale negatively. If you don't like the suggestion to spend a little more now and avoid a problem later, then by all means don't do it.

*
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Old 02-03-2012, 04:54 PM   #53
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RE: Battery Wire

If anybody wants to "stick it to the man" by seaching high and low for a product that is as good as "marine rated" but not "marine rated", have at it. Enjoy yourself. You could have had the stuff in hand by now and be installing it instead of shopping.

Me, I have no axe to grind, I use what I think is best under the circumstances. In the case of wire or cable for my boat, that would be "boat cable".

I think certain folks on this forum just argue for the sake of arguing or trying to impress people with their "knowledge".
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:00 PM   #54
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RE: Battery Wire

"You don't even know who you're talking to, who is Don? Is your blood pressure so high that you can't even read?"

Uh, maybe someone can explain to you who the guy is with the pointy shoes in the cartoon you posted.

"My goodness Rick, relax and take a break. Are you so highly strung that you can't help repeating yourself over and over and over?"

I have the same answer to the same question and the same counter argument. If you don't like the answer, stop asking the same question in a different form. You can wire your boat with zip cord for all I care, if you put it in conduit and terminate it properly and don't overload it, it will last just as long as "boat cable." If you can't understand that then spend your time finding out who Don is rather than argue about something that you are obviously unable to understand.

If anyone here needs to "take a break" I suggest it might be you if you have become so distracted that you can't even remember your own posts, or have no idea what your cartoon is meant to illustrate or who is in it.
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:38 PM   #55
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RE: Battery Wire

Greetings,
Mr. RickB. I think I understand now but my neighbor, Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?
Thanks.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:31 PM   #56
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RE: Battery Wire

The wiring on the boat I just purchased is 30 years old. At the connectors to the batteries the corrosion was pretty bad. If tinned I think it would have been a different story. The shrink wrap and the cable covering has started to break down also exposing the untinned wire to the elements. If tinned I could probably get X more years out of it, but as it is I have got to replace. Of course the fact the old wire lasted 30 years could make a good argument for using regular old wire but if I don't get the shrink wrap correct this time I'll have problems in a lot less than 30 years. This is the 4 the boat I have owned and wire corrosion was present on all of them. I guess the factory didn't do a good job with the connectors. Maybe tinned wire is for those of us that aren't making perfect connections all the time.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:52 PM   #57
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RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
RT Firefly wrote:
Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?
I am skeptical about using rigatoni in the engine room but have had good luck with garden hose. If you want something with writing on it for the surveyor, you can use PEX tubing or PVC pipe, they are both cheap and waterproof and have stuff written on them. Rigatoni gets soft when used in the bilge.
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Old 02-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #58
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Battery Wire

As I mentioned 5 pages ago, my industrial experience with tinned wire is nada, as in not used. So what makes a boat so rigorous an application whereas in far wetter (acids and mists) non marine applications tinned wire is not utilized?

Is tinned wire speced by the Navy for use on nuclear subs? I'm just asking, I have no idea.



-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 3rd of February 2012 11:45:34 PM


-- Edited by sunchaser on Friday 3rd of February 2012 11:45:59 PM
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Old 02-04-2012, 04:50 AM   #59
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RE: Battery Wire

The military and commercial maritiie world does not use tinned wire and those critical installations perform very well for longer than most recreational boats even last.


Not so. the military does not DEMAND tinned wire , Except for the most critical service.

Naval "GUN FIRE WIRE" is probably the most critical and is not only tinned bit also shielded.

Its IEEE cert , and the USCG accepted it in our 90/90 that was built for inspected service.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:58 AM   #60
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RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
RickB wrote:RT Firefly wrote:
Mr. Panza wants to know if that zip cord should be tinned or untinned? Also I don't have conduit. Would Rigatoni work as well?
I am skeptical about using rigatoni in the engine room but have had good luck with garden hose. If you want something with writing on it for the surveyor, you can use PEX tubing or PVC pipe, they are both cheap and waterproof and have stuff written on them. Rigatoni gets soft when used in the bilge.

Type ENT flexible non-metalic electrical conduit works pretty well for running or protecting wires and cables.

http://www.carlon.com/Master%20Catalog/ENT_2B43.pdf

It doesn't carry ABYC or USCG approveal so that could be either a positive or a negative feature depending on which side of the "approval" fence you sit on.*

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