Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-01-2012, 06:00 PM   #21
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
RE: Battery Wire

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Rick but he's spot on this time. MARINE must be an acronym for "bend over and wait for it" in some language. I can't believe the crap that gets perpetrated on boat owners in the name of "marine practices". If it isn't in NEC you don't have to do it in your house; if it isn't in ABYC you don't have to do it on your boat. If you don't know then you deserve to get taken. If you do know and the surveyor is wrong then call him on it - no matter who's paying his bill.
__________________
Advertisement

bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 06:35 PM   #22
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Battery Wire

When I install or replace something on my boat (or home, car, whatever), I don't concern myself with what a surveyor or inspector might think, I do it to my standards which are pretty high. In this case, I would (and have) used tinned "boat cable" because I believe it's a better installation, will likely last longer, and is one less thing to worry about. If it makes a surveyor or futur buyer smile, that's an added bonus.

Compared to the cost of the boat and compared to the cost of labor (or your own time), the additional cost of using the proper materials is very small.
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 07:19 PM   #23
Guru
 
bobofthenorth's Avatar
 
City: Cowichan Bay, BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Gray Hawk
Vessel Model: Defever 43 Offshore Cruiser
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 570
RE: Battery Wire

"the additional cost of using the proper materials is very small"

That's precisely the point - if ABYC says the material is proper then its proper. If you want to do something different - note I said "different" not "better" - then that's your choice.
bobofthenorth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 08:53 PM   #24
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
bobofthenorth wrote:
*if ABYC says the material is proper then its proper. If you want to do something different - note I said "different" not "better" - then that's your choice.
That is about it. Just because some surveyor prefers to see some particular brand or type of something doesn't make everything else wrong.

Besides, has anyone ever shown "tinned" wire is better? Better for what?

I have put a few million dollars worth of wire into boats of all sizes and none of it was tinned wire that said marine on it. Most of it came with classification society or CG approval though. It doesn't get any "better" than that.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 09:18 PM   #25
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Battery Wire

Quote:
RickB wrote:


bobofthenorth wrote:
*if ABYC says the material is proper then its proper. If you want to do something different - note I said "different" not "better" - then that's your choice.
Just because some surveyor prefers to see some particular brand or type of something doesn't make everything else wrong.





Heck, it ain't the surveyor, it's companies like Anchor that do this.

So, Rick, where do you get your wire? ;-) And how do we determine CG approved?

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Wednesday 1st of February 2012 10:19:45 PM
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 09:39 PM   #26
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 39
RE: Battery Wire

Without getting into the finer details of this argument I'll just add that you can buy directly from Pacer Marine Wire by going to their website and registering.

Pacer makes their wire in their factory in Tampa FL, unlike a previously mentioned company that has their wire made by contract manufacturers, located, well you can guess where.

Pacer is the source of the wire found at the retailers mentioned above. I don't know how Pacers direct prices compare to their resellers.

Mike
Palm Coast FL
pull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2012, 11:23 PM   #27
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Battery Wire

So, Rick, where do you get your wire?

Contact Hardware Specialties in Seattle. Ask what they have in way of remainders of whatever size and number of conductors you want, armored or non-armored.

*

And how do we determine CG approved?

If you are willing to pay for it they will supply the documentation for CG, ABS, or other Class Society.

If you just want to know if something is CG approved, the CG has a website where you can look up equipment and materials approvals and download the approval documentation. It can be tricky to use but it's handy.

If there is a good commercial marine electrical shop in your area, stop by and ask what they have in way of remainders and remnants. They usually sell it for a very reasonable prices.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 04:55 AM   #28
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Battery Wire

Also another website I have bookmarked before starting this thread... Thanks Mike. I'll call them and see what I can find out about per-foot sales of non-tinned wire. I'll love to buy American if I can.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 05:55:36 AM
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 05:01 AM   #29
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 16,518
RE: Battery Wire

Besides, has anyone ever shown "tinned" wire is better? Better for what?

LONGEVITY

Folks that want to enjoy even better than mere marine grade can visit Orlando where there is a NASA scrap yard..

Silver coated wiring any one?
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 05:45 AM   #30
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Battery Wire

Would it behoove (is that spelled right? ;-) ) me to move the ground to the yellow wire standard?
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 06:25 AM   #31
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
Would it behoove (is that spelled right? ;-) ) me to move the ground to the yellow wire standard?

I believe you mean the negative wire, not the ground wire (which would be green in color).

Yellow or black, the current carrying capacity is the same.* The new requirement is to color the DC negative conductors yellow (rather than the traditional black) on boats with an AC electrical system as well as a DC system so the AC "hot" conductor (traditionally black) is not confused with the DC negative conductor.

Should you change yours?* If it was my boat and all the DC branch circuits used black for the DC negative, I would continue with black for the battery negative conductors just to reduce any confusion.* Actually, this is what I did on my boat for the inverter and windlass.* Being "old school", I never even thought about it.

But, you can use yellow if you wish, it's your choice.* If you were completely rewiring a boat or building a new one, yellow would be the choice for DC negative.
*
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 06:31 AM   #32
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
FF wrote:
Besides, has anyone ever shown "tinned" wire is better? Better for what?

LONGEVITY

I have personally observed wire that was corroded and black several feet from a termination.* That would have been untinned wire.* Tinned wire will not do that.

My point is, if you have to buy materials to do a job and then spend a lot of time and/or money on labor, why not use the best quality materials you can find (at a reasonable cost, of course)?

If you've ever done a job over (for free) because you used inferior materials, you would understand.* I learned this lesson many, many years ago and it has stuck with me.
*
rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 06:35 AM   #33
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Battery Wire

Right... DC Negative... Sorry. I tend to interchange the terms sometimes.
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 08:19 AM   #34
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
rwidman wrote:I have personally observed wire that was corroded and black several feet from a termination.
I have personally never seen a corroded conductor on a wire that is terminated correctly, protected from damage, and operated within its temperature limits.

And I have seen a lot of wires.

If all you do is strip the insulation off, crimp a connector on it and expose the wire to moisture, bilge water, washdown water, excessive heat, oil, mechanical movement and general abuse, you could use silver wire and it won't last half as long as good quality wire that is terminated and installed properly.

That is the secret to LONGEVITY, not some marketers wet dream. All the magic coatings in the world won't overcome low rent installation techniques.

Did you ever wonder why a military or commercial vessel can last 30 years in constant operation without having its wiring self destruct but a recreational vessel seems to need special treatment?
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #35
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Battery Wire

I called Pace... they do have SOME non-tinned wire. Nothing larger than 1/0, though and that's a bummer. Also, nothing non-tinned in yellow insulation standard. So... the search continues. I suppose I COULD mix and match, but I'd LOVE to find a one-stop shop for it all.
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #36
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
RE: Battery Wire

Not a bad idea, but I don't know if the insulation is correct. Maybe Rick can shed some light. Here's the description: Stranded Bare Copper Class K, Insulating Material Red Carolprene Jacket, Standards RoHS Compliant

Sounds like rubber to me. I think the requirement is for PVC.
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 11:51 AM   #37
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Battery Wire

I don't know what "Carolprene" is. Carol is a wire manufacturer and they probably have a proprietary jacket material. What you want is an EPR jacket which is a polypropylene compound (maybe what Carolprene is) as it is oil resistant.

The Class K refers to the number of strands that make up the conductor. K is a high count of small strands in a large cross section so that heavy current capacity is still flexible.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 12:36 PM   #38
Guru
 
Tom.B's Avatar
 
City: Cary, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Skinny Dippin'
Vessel Model: Navigator 4200 Classic
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,153
Battery Wire

So if it IS an EPR material, it would pass. Would it be CG compliant? Still... finding a per foot dealer might be, again, a challenge. Calling welding supply place tomorrow.

Tom-

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 01:38:47 PM
Tom.B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 04:26 PM   #39
Scraping Paint
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Vessel Model: CHB 48 Zodiac YL 4.2
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,804
RE: Battery Wire

There is no compliance standard you have to meet. That is the whole point of this discussion. Unless you are going to operate your boat commercially or want to get a class certificate, you can pretty much do what you want.

I think there was a guy here who soldered a fuel system together out of hardware store Ts and elbows wasn't there? That probably got "passed" by every surveyor out there and the CG doesn't give a hoot. It seems to be the single item of "tinned wire" being the third rail of boat maintenance and small boat surveyors that gets everyone worked up so much.
RickB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2012, 05:20 PM   #40
Guru
 
City: North Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,390
RE: Battery Wire

Quote:
GonzoF1 wrote:
So if it IS an EPR material, it would pass. Would it be CG compliant? Still... finding a per foot dealer might be, again, a challenge. Calling welding supply place tomorrow.

Tom-

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Thursday 2nd of February 2012 01:38:47 PM

I posted about genuinedealz.com above.* They sell battery cable by the foot.* Really, they do.
*
__________________

rwidman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Wire Harness Tom.B Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 8 03-12-2012 12:52 AM
Snubber for steel wire rode 2DASEA Anchors and Anchoring 11 01-11-2012 12:52 PM
Switching out rope and block rigging for wire cable. healhustler General Discussion 11 07-12-2011 07:40 AM
Getting Rid of the House Wire BelfastCruiser Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 20 04-18-2011 05:59 AM
direct wire to house batteries from alternator? Daddyo Electrical and Electronics & Navigation 12 01-31-2009 04:49 AM




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012